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Thread: FSGD and Color

  1. #1
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    FSGD and Color

    Here is the link to an article about fish color genetics http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1890551/ (click .pdf if you want to print it). Good reading up to the point that the genetics and chemistry become daunting (but you’re not going to be tested on it so just take what is useful to you). Things like the Fish Specific Genome Duplication (FSGD), the kind of and numbers of genes involved in color, their similarity across all animals, the black path, the yellow/orange/red paths all make interesting reading to the interested. Rob

  2. #2
    Sansai
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    Study

    Thanks for sharing Rob, much food for thought, the study practically begs for interpretation in our Koi, who are the Koi geneticists this could be forwarded to?

    I'd really love to see the same team or the leaders at least combine with some Koi breeders for a study.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    we are indeed fortunate that you two fellas have come along to look into this fascinating subject! As you both probably know, the Isreali were very dedicated to creating a punnett square for koi breeding ( 1970s-80s-90s) and the Japanese under the work of two sources- the Nishikigoi station ( extension of agriculture adminstration of Japan's Goverment) and also ZNA have done gene research and chromsome count etc since the 70s.
    At one time ZNA in Japan was very active with thousands of members- many being professionals of science, academia and medicine ( it is a wealth man's hobby in Japan and always was due to expense of land and koi). To give you an idea of their level of advancement in this area, there are articles showing the difference in chromosome count in kohaku vs ogon. Interesting stuff- fascinating really, and almost makes me wish my major and minor studies in college/Grad school were flipped from a major in Zoology ( pre vet school core requirements) and minor in genetic to Genetics with a minor in Zoology!
    On the Isreali front, the number of PhD gentists studying genes in koi speifically is extensive. And to this day I communicate with several of them- Boris, a new firend, sent me three published papers of his recently. If you'd like a referral to read these zebra fish studies, I'd recommend you contact Boris---( he an his fellow researchers have been working with koi since the early 90s.) I'm sure he can help you two out in the direction of the googling.
    His contact info;
    Boris Gomelsky, Ph.D.
    Associate Professor
    Aquaculture Research Center
    Kentucky State University
    103 Athletic Drive
    Frankfort, KY 40601
    U.S.A.
    Phone: 1 502 597 8114
    Fax: 1 502 597 8118
    E-mail: [email protected]

    JR

  4. #4
    Sansai
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    Study

    Hi JR

    I have to confess that most of my Israeli reading on the family has been on food carp, not Koi, but will start looking into what is available, its great food for thought just in the doing. I really would like to see some of those folks involved in this study work with Koi folks in Israel as well as the rest of the world, it seems an area ripe for serious study.

    Unfortunately my Genetics study is in two minors, one undergraduate and one grad school, but its always worthwhile to delve into. I am looking forward to it, thanks for the link.

    jake
    Jake Levi
    Oswego, NY

    We are all in this together

  5. #5
    Daihonmei
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    wow, excellent, so you would understand this subject better than I. I think you will surprised when you start getting into the subject that it isn't wild genetics in the least.
    I do a lecture on the 'missing link' in Nishikigoi that I think you might get a kick out of.
    In the 'readers digest' version we have

    1) and isolated gene pool of four races of food carp and wild carp.

    2) natural mutation and the retention of unque individuals

    3) slective breeding leading to two paths- line breeding and cross breeding

    The result is two base mutations with four patterns running from wild type to pure mutation. Within that you have color morphs and color mutations.

    So the birds eye view is actually very simple but the details are unbelievably complicated.

    If you contact Boris ( he worked with the famous genetist Rothbarth) please feel free to use my name - Jim Reilly. He will give you his studies or 'red and white' and dominace in traits that you will find dove tail nicely with my ZNA teachings ( which come to ZNA from the old breeders and are re-enforced by Japanese professional types in the area of genetics and physiology. Best of Luck Jake.

  6. #6
    Sansai
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    Koi Genetics

    Hi JR

    where can I access those readers both digest and expanded versions?

    My actual work with carp has been with the German 'Mirror' Carp, fish farming and some work in population drift in farming populations. Rather dated, about 20 odd years ago but the mechanics of the process hasnt changed a whole lot although selection pressure has greatly improved.

    I am quite interested in reading all three, my personal interest is selective breeding, but all is interesting.

    Really glad to find this thread.

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    I have copies of all three so if you don't get them from Boris just email me and I'll sent attachments to you via return email . My email is [email protected]

    JR

  8. #8
    Sansai
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    studies

    Thanks JR, I will.

    jake
    Last edited by Jake Levi; 07-22-2010 at 06:50 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Good reading up to the point that the genetics and chemistry become daunting***

    Didn't take long.

    Neat site. I registered just to be able to search the materials available through it.

  10. #10
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    wow, excellent, so you would understand this subject better than I. I think you will surprised when you start getting into the subject that it isn't wild genetics in the least.
    I do a lecture on the 'missing link' in Nishikigoi that I think you might get a kick out of.
    In the 'readers digest' version we have

    1) and isolated gene pool of four races of food carp and wild carp.

    2) natural mutation and the retention of unque individuals

    3) slective breeding leading to two paths- line breeding and cross breeding

    The result is two base mutations with four patterns running from wild type to pure mutation. Within that you have color morphs and color mutations.

    So the birds eye view is actually very simple but the details are unbelievably complicated.
    There is value I believe in taking the time to review 'wild carp' in the flesh as a living specimen, adult sized & comparing it to a high class koi. This comparitive study will teach the observer much in the way of skin quality & types, phenotype expression, colour, and pattern evolution, especially if compared to the four pattern types.

    The scientist in me appreciates the genetics while my cultural studies training appreciates the artistry.

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