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Thread: Word on the Street: $75-$85 phoam phraxionator

  1. #11
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    What is costly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan25 View Post
    no sure about costly, Suzy....I think $1,000 may be costly...but $75?


    Anyhow, not sure of a filtration system that handles docs except some sort of fractionator system.....
    $IOOO is costly. $IOOO + $75 plus pre and post filtration is even more expensive. That's my view.

    Why not go for a filtration system where no additions are necessary?

    Do you know of a GOOD filtration system, even DIY, for a decent sized pond

    that will cost under $1000 ? And that will also make it unnecessary to add

    any other gadgets to help it perform?

    Let me know, please.

  2. #12
    Jumbo gregbickal's Avatar
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    Suzi, have you seen my filtration system that I use in my koihouse?

    It consists of a 3x5 square settling chamber (green treated wood, lined with rubber). Inside that is two 55 gallon barrels full of slits. Inside the barrels is a 6" pipe full of slits. Pump draws water from the 6" pipe. Inside the barrel is bio-balls.

    To clean my filter I rush air through the bio-balls and then flush the chamber. Whole filter system is Dirt cheap to build.

    The pump then pumps up to 55 gallon barrels as trickle towers. I could see retro-fitting a unit on to the bottom of those to make the foam come out. I'll have to experiment

  3. #13
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcuss View Post
    LOL, don't be naive. You can put a million ERIC's on a system, it's not going to remove protiens and DOC's.


    Grant

    Some think it will .

    I posted that photo earlier of my pond water and also what is removed from that pond water . I never thought I'd get that oil looking liquid out of clear pond water .

    But I did !

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcuss View Post
    LOL, don't be naive. You can put a million ERIC's on a system, it's not going to remove protiens and DOC's.


    Grant
    Hey, Grant....I'm not being naive, just trying to be realistic.I could install two Nexi, for instance, in my new pond once it's finished, and add all the trappings that seem to be necessary (sieves, etc.) to have halfway decent (???) water quality.

    Tell me how much this would cost..( Plus the $75 for the "gadget.")

    One of Marco's friends in Spain has done just this, and has sent an S.O.S. to Peter to replace his newly installed Nexi with ERIC units.( The water quality of his pond is catastrophic.) He's seen Marco's pond, water....and Koi. And he is begging for ERIC as soon as possible.

    Let's not forget that Marco had this same system before he purchased his ERIC units!

    I'm redoing my pond in concrete, as you know, and I thank you for your encouragement on this project.

    But I know that I'm doing it right this time, including the filtration.

    Best to you,

    Suzy

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregbickal View Post
    Suzi, have you seen my filtration system that I use in my koihouse?

    It consists of a 3x5 square settling chamber (green treated wood, lined with rubber). Inside that is two 55 gallon barrels full of slits. Inside the barrels is a 6" pipe full of slits. Pump draws water from the 6" pipe. Inside the barrel is bio-balls.

    To clean my filter I rush air through the bio-balls and then flush the chamber. Whole filter system is Dirt cheap to build.

    The pump then pumps up to 55 gallon barrels as trickle towers. I could see retro-fitting a unit on to the bottom of those to make the foam come out. I'll have to experiment
    Hey, that sounds great. How much did it all cost?

    I'm interested, as my Dad was a DIY guy. But he had about 100 acres to DIY
    on, I have only 500 square meters in my garden!

    Ready-made is the answer for me. And this new filter is fulfilling it's promise of being purchased the world over and getting rave reviews from the owners.

    Tell me more about your system. I'm learning every day on this great forum. Thanks!

  6. #16
    Nisai Sigma Koi's Avatar
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    Hi Ethan. I was inspired by your design to build one of my own earlier this year. I happened across the NDS material as well, so I went with a larger chamber diameter and 3" PVC into and out of the chamber. I don't recall the finished price, but it was ~$100 for everything.

    Raymond.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Word on the Street:  - phoam phraxionator-dsc_1704.jpg   Word on the Street:  - phoam phraxionator-dsc_1705.jpg   Word on the Street:  - phoam phraxionator-dsc_1706.jpg  

  7. #17
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    I put an 8" foam thing on my pond, and considering the stocking level it's a little shocking to see the nasty stuff coming out of the pipe. I'm running 2800 GPH through it now and finally have it dialed... just right.

    Thanks for the great build idea Ethan, it's improved the water for my koi.


    Suzy. I don't think you know what a protein skimmer does, nor what it is. Submersed, aerated, trickle, bakki, horizontal, vertical, swirly and any other configuration you can imagine does NOT remove the dissolved organic compounds from the water column. A bakki or aerated system might make foam (the DOCs make the foam), but without a design to remove that foam it simply breaks back down and re-enters the water column.

    Understand what you're talking about before you start lobbing "ERIC" bombs in a thread where they don't belong.

    Not trying to be nasty, just realistic.

    Oh, and by the way? My filtration costs far less than your ERIC system, be sure of that. All DIY and home built, and my water quality is spot on.

    There's more to maintaining good water than a filter. A lot more.

    Grant

  8. #18
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    For those who would actually prefer to study the material before opening their mouths and failing the exam.

    (Cult members need not bother wasting their time reading and learning since for them faith alone suffices: Just pass the Kool-Aid.)

    DOCs revisited


    Posted by James P on 2/17/2007, 12:01 pm
    http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/1171717287.html

    It looks like the organic management thread has hit the wall in terms of stimulating interest? But it is probably THE most important topic when it comes to koi pond management. Certainly for the intermediate and advanced hobbyist this is a more important discussion than ammonia conversation or pH conversation as those parameters are easy to master and subjects for beginners. And maybe less understood- it is organic waste management that ultimately affects ammonia output and pH threats.

    Organic issues show up in much more subtle ways however. But they represent a ticking time bomb that can quickly/eventually cause disease, parasite proliferation, a weak immune system thru low level stress, pH crash, gas ration issues etc.

    Some of the common warning signs that things are getting out of control are:
    Chronic high nitrate levels
    Chronic low ORP
    Chronic string
    Nagging nitrite levels
    Yellow water
    Cloudy/murky water
    Sluggish fish behavior
    Odors from the sump
    Falling pH
    And foam on the water surface

    From all these things, we can create two sub-lists. One is the physical manifestation of a eutrophic environment as it moves from low organic load to high organic load. This is of course, the nature of a closed system and as such, is inevitable. It is a form of ‘aging’ as the biology does its thing. This causes a gradual shifting of the microbial mix until an imbalance and/or new dominating species results. Additive intervention in the form of strong oxidative chemicals (chlorine, PP or ozone) ‘clean’ some of the ‘aging’ conditions but not all, creating an imbalance of its own making in the process. So that is certainly not the answer to managing organic trends.

    The evidence of this process of ‘aging’ or eutrophication trend is seen environmentally when the water becomes cloudy (bacteria bloom) or the water becomes green (single cell algae) or string algae begins to grow inches per day. This is the physical ‘world’ changing within the pond.

    The second list would be the byproduct of such a trend. These are chemicals, proteins or dyes released BY the above mentioned environmental shift. And these show as stained water (yellow humic acids), nagging nitrite (denitrification), chronic nitrate (over active biofilter) or foam on the water surface. All of this in turn, results in sluggish or moody fish (loss of appetite and bottom sitting).

    Among the indicators in the second list I’d like to discuss DOCs as that is the number one sign of excess organics in the water column. DOCs will quickly come and go based on pond design, feeding technique, turnover rate and stocking levels. DOCs (Dissolved organic carbon/compounds) are nothing more than ‘the leftovers’ from either fish digestion or bacterial/algal activity. It is a catch all name for molecules of protein, carbohydrates, lipids, starches, sugars, amino acids, fatty and organic acids, the molecules of color food, dyes, hormones from fish and algae and of course humic acid
    (which is what stains the water) etc.

    These items are too small to filter out mechanically or settle out. In fact they are resistant to settling as they are ‘electrically charged ‘to float towards the surface where forces of thin layer of ‘skin at the surface’ attract them. There these tiny components gather and foam ‘rafts’ of organic and vitamin rich organic material. This in turn attracts free swimming heterotrophic species called ‘wolf packs’ that attack the nutrient source and perform the first step of biological decay- mineralization. This in term feeds protozoa that fed on those bacteria. These all becomes part of the general biomass (along with fish and biofilter bacteria) that is pulling down water quality and reducing oxygen and increasing other species of nitrogenous waste materials and gases. And as will all pollution factors in the water, depending on extent, these things will cause disease or infestation or simply reduce the growth of koi in both size and color development.

    It is unfortunate that the beginner is told that ponds need to be given a ‘good cleaning’ twice a year because the filter is ‘asleep’ in winter and the waste accumulates. It is really just another stress factor for the fish at that point. A point when winter exhaustion has the fish slightly or greatly weakened depending on winter care techniques.

    Instead of this approach, it is probably better to advise the beginners within your chapters to maintain the organic issues 365 days a year with a regular weekly and monthly routine and to incorporate the latest technology for organic waste management. I think it would be very wise for chapters to spend more time on proper stocking guide lines and proper seasonal feeding techniques in order to manage what goes into the pond and how the pond can be run efficiently.

    Running long as usual. DOC removal in another post. JR

    *Well, you can't stop DOC from happening? It is a natural byproduct of koi activity. You can manage it and remove it, but not prevent it. I think you mean manage when you say 'prevent,' right? JR
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  9. #19
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop View Post
    For those who would actually prefer to study the material before opening their mouths and failing the exam.

    (Cult members need not bother wasting their time reading and learning since for them faith alone suffices: Just pass the Kool-Aid.)

    DOCs revisited


    Posted by James P on 2/17/2007, 12:01 pm
    http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/1171717287.html

    It looks like the organic management thread has hit the wall in terms of stimulating interest? But it is probably THE most important topic when it comes to koi pond management. Certainly for the intermediate and advanced hobbyist this is a more important discussion than ammonia conversation or pH conversation as those parameters are easy to master and subjects for beginners. And maybe less understood- it is organic waste management that ultimately affects ammonia output and pH threats.

    Organic issues show up in much more subtle ways however. But they represent a ticking time bomb that can quickly/eventually cause disease, parasite proliferation, a weak immune system thru low level stress, pH crash, gas ration issues etc.

    Some of the common warning signs that things are getting out of control are:
    Chronic high nitrate levels
    Chronic low ORP
    Chronic string
    Nagging nitrite levels
    Yellow water
    Cloudy/murky water
    Sluggish fish behavior
    Odors from the sump
    Falling pH
    And foam on the water surface

    From all these things, we can create two sub-lists. One is the physical manifestation of a eutrophic environment as it moves from low organic load to high organic load. This is of course, the nature of a closed system and as such, is inevitable. It is a form of ‘aging’ as the biology does its thing. This causes a gradual shifting of the microbial mix until an imbalance and/or new dominating species results. Additive intervention in the form of strong oxidative chemicals (chlorine, PP or ozone) ‘clean’ some of the ‘aging’ conditions but not all, creating an imbalance of its own making in the process. So that is certainly not the answer to managing organic trends.

    The evidence of this process of ‘aging’ or eutrophication trend is seen environmentally when the water becomes cloudy (bacteria bloom) or the water becomes green (single cell algae) or string algae begins to grow inches per day. This is the physical ‘world’ changing within the pond.

    The second list would be the byproduct of such a trend. These are chemicals, proteins or dyes released BY the above mentioned environmental shift. And these show as stained water (yellow humic acids), nagging nitrite (denitrification), chronic nitrate (over active biofilter) or foam on the water surface. All of this in turn, results in sluggish or moody fish (loss of appetite and bottom sitting).

    Among the indicators in the second list I’d like to discuss DOCs as that is the number one sign of excess organics in the water column. DOCs will quickly come and go based on pond design, feeding technique, turnover rate and stocking levels. DOCs (Dissolved organic carbon/compounds) are nothing more than ‘the leftovers’ from either fish digestion or bacterial/algal activity. It is a catch all name for molecules of protein, carbohydrates, lipids, starches, sugars, amino acids, fatty and organic acids, the molecules of color food, dyes, hormones from fish and algae and of course humic acid
    (which is what stains the water) etc.

    These items are too small to filter out mechanically or settle out. In fact they are resistant to settling as they are ‘electrically charged ‘to float towards the surface where forces of thin layer of ‘skin at the surface’ attract them. There these tiny components gather and foam ‘rafts’ of organic and vitamin rich organic material. This in turn attracts free swimming heterotrophic species called ‘wolf packs’ that attack the nutrient source and perform the first step of biological decay- mineralization. This in term feeds protozoa that fed on those bacteria. These all becomes part of the general biomass (along with fish and biofilter bacteria) that is pulling down water quality and reducing oxygen and increasing other species of nitrogenous waste materials and gases. And as will all pollution factors in the water, depending on extent, these things will cause disease or infestation or simply reduce the growth of koi in both size and color development.

    It is unfortunate that the beginner is told that ponds need to be given a ‘good cleaning’ twice a year because the filter is ‘asleep’ in winter and the waste accumulates. It is really just another stress factor for the fish at that point. A point when winter exhaustion has the fish slightly or greatly weakened depending on winter care techniques.

    Instead of this approach, it is probably better to advise the beginners within your chapters to maintain the organic issues 365 days a year with a regular weekly and monthly routine and to incorporate the latest technology for organic waste management. I think it would be very wise for chapters to spend more time on proper stocking guide lines and proper seasonal feeding techniques in order to manage what goes into the pond and how the pond can be run efficiently.

    Running long as usual. DOC removal in another post. JR

    *Well, you can't stop DOC from happening? It is a natural byproduct of koi activity. You can manage it and remove it, but not prevent it. I think you mean manage when you say 'prevent,' right? JR

    Thank you for posting that essay, Don. I appreciate it greatly.

    I suppose that DOC removal is one way to at least not inhibit growth, correct?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcuss View Post
    I put an 8" foam thing on my pond, and considering the stocking level it's a little shocking to see the nasty stuff coming out of the pipe. I'm running 2800 GPH through it now and finally have it dialed... just right.

    Thanks for the great build idea Ethan, it's improved the water for my koi.


    Suzy. I don't think you know what a protein skimmer does, nor what it is. Submersed, aerated, trickle, bakki, horizontal, vertical, swirly and any other configuration you can imagine does NOT remove the dissolved organic compounds from the water column. A bakki or aerated system might make foam (the DOCs make the foam), but without a design to remove that foam it simply breaks back down and re-enters the water c
    olumn.

    Sorry, Grant, but if I ever need a protein skimmer I'll let you know. Maybe the filter makes the difference. I don't think you know that I've been doing my homework.
    Understand what you're talking about before you start lobbing "ERIC" bombs in a thread where they don't belong.

    Not trying to be nasty, just realistic.

    Oh, and by the way? My filtration costs far less than your ERIC system, be sure of that. All DIY and home built, and my water quality is spot on.

    There's more to maintaining good water than a filter. A lot more.

    Grant
    Is that so? And you can also purchase a great Koi for peanuts, right?

    You have been trying to be nasty, and I am being realistic. I've also been doing my homework and cannot fathom why you accuse me of dropping "ERIC bombs?" Just tell me to shut up and not come back if you prefer.

    A decent filtration system should suffice to itself. The rest is pure BS.
    How much did it cost you? Including labour, of course?

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