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Thread: Kentaro Sakai On Raising Koi For Show

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    4. Depth of the pond is not as important as length. A long narrow pond is better than a square pond. The important factor is to give horizontal swimming distance. (Sakai-san uses ponds which are 1.5 meters deep, or approximately 5-feet.)
    As far as I know, #4 is the trend and is majority opinion in Japan rather than Sakai's thought. 1.5-2.0 meters deep is good enough but deeper than 2.0 meters is not necessary.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    I don't find any problems with Kentaro's thoughts on this.
    Steve is obviously correct that a LONG pond of the volume Kentaro describes is not workable for the average hobbyist so we make up for it with greater depth, but Kentaro's observations are still very reasonable as far as picking the "ideal" setting for mature development.
    The successful houses in Japan all employ exemplary water management techniques in their growth and finishing ponds and the ability to manage the environment has proven to be their greatest success. What value is it to breed the best Koi in the world if you can't demonstrate that quality when they mature?
    Can we achieve their results in our humble backyard ponds? If we emulate their water management in terms of "quality" my answer is an unqualified YES.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  3. #13
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    was tickled about Mike's "talk in riddles" comment. I was fortunate to have Kentaro as a teacher when he worked at pan intercorp for two years.

    I find this also prevelent in my bonsai teachers, so it's nothing unique to koi.

    In the years I've been exposed to this type of teaching, my take on it is that it is a determined attempt to encourage you to think about the matter and arrive at what you feel to be the truth based on your current knowledge as opposed to just accepting other's statements ( irregardless of their credentials).

    For those who are familar with "the river" at purdin koi farm ( It was designed by kentaro's father) The results of the residents now housed there have been a real eye opener to me about growth both in length and
    depth. ( it's 10 foot deep) If i ever get a chance to downsize my residence and build a new pond, I'll be building something scaled back but similar in design.
    Dick Benbow

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    was tickled about Mike's "talk in riddles" comment. I was fortunate to have Kentaro as a teacher when he worked at pan intercorp for two years.

    I find this also prevelent in my bonsai teachers, so it's nothing unique to koi.

    In the years I've been exposed to this type of teaching, my take on it is that it is a determined attempt to encourage you to think about the matter and arrive at what you feel to be the truth based on your current knowledge as opposed to just accepting other's statements ( irregardless of their credentials).
    Dick

    I have to concur with that comment. Rarely are there definite answers, much of what breeders do is based on 'feeling' in the prevailing situation.

    Coupled with that things change from breeder to breeder.

    A Japanese acquaintance spent some time with a breeder last summer. Sat next to the 'master' breeder they asked him to explain Showa selection, I think 3rd cull. The master breeder told him it was impossible, he should just sit, watch, and work it out for himself.

    Mark

  5. #15
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    The concept of depth has been the cause of many koi pond design drafts as I continue in my pursuit of designing my 'dream pond'. I have heard of koi ponds that stock high quality koi whose depths range from 2'9" to 12'. I have also heard of knowledgeable dealers and breeders stating that depths of 1.5 to 2 meters (5' to 6'6") are ideal. While I understand that each pond is a unique system dependent on pond volume, shape, TPRs and other water returns, filtration, etc. I also believe that there is a particular depth that is most ideal. As to what that depth is.....well, I am still scratching my head.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen View Post
    The concept of depth has been the cause of many koi pond design drafts as I continue in my pursuit of designing my 'dream pond'. I have heard of koi ponds that stock high quality koi whose depths range from 2'9" to 12'. I have also heard of knowledgeable dealers and breeders stating that depths of 1.5 to 2 meters (5' to 6'6") are ideal. While I understand that each pond is a unique system dependent on pond volume, shape, TPRs and other water returns, filtration, etc. I also believe that there is a particular depth that is most ideal. As to what that depth is.....well, I am still scratching my head.
    As soon as you pin down that universally "ideal" depth is, please post it up.
    The rest of us are scratching bald spots on our scalps too

  7. #17
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    Just measure your Koi net & handle,... and go 3 feet shallower than that.

    Best Wishes,
    Brady

  8. #18
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    Momotaro latest concrete design for their new in-house facility ponds, comes with pond depth of 1.2 meters , with mid level pipes in between partition walls in the filteration chambers to allow even shallower depth than the 1.2meter water depth if desired . This is in addition to some of the existing shallow ponds where they hold harvested stocks built few years ago .... away from the gigantic oylmpic size pond they had originally . Do these shallow concrete ponds provide any catch ...??

    Sakai FF new concrete ponds were completed couple of years ago with 1.5 meter depth , but often leave water level at 1.2m height .
    Breeders do share knowledge amongst themselves , especially the younger generation breeders . It's costly to built new ponds , but certainly this is one of their answers to improvement . These shallower ponds are constructed in-house , away from predators and even some basic natural elements .

    Believe they have lots of sharing to do , if only we are willing to listen ... . Both Momotaro and Sakai , including Narita believed and shared one common knowledge ....... HIGH OXYGENATION .

    David

  9. #19
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Good Morning David (or in your case, good evening)

    Your pond was the first one that came to my mind when I read the original post. I suppose it is safe to assume that you have been listening on your trips to Japan these past several years

    Your points are well taken and tie into several of the observations made by others. Those of us who live in areas with wide seasonal temperature extremes have to seek depth in order to maintain stability and safety for our Koi as a shallower pond would tend to heat up during summers +100 deg F days and too cold on nights hovering around 0 deg F (or even colder in some cases). Guarding against predators is another concern for many that a 1 meter pond would be vulnerable to.

    BUT, where temperatures and predation are more manageable a pond of the same design as yours or Sakai's would have many advantages and Kentaro's observations about the advantages over a mudpond for mature Koi are noteworthy. Judging by the results you enjoy I'd say we have good evidence to that effect

  10. #20
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Some great Info here to think about , Thanks .


    During my Aquarium days with Tropicals it was always "Surface Area" to get growth . As a example , 20 gal. tanks come in Long & Tall sizes . The Long tanks were used to grow fish while the Tall tanks were for showing them .

    I've always had great growth with my koi and have had them develop good frames . My pond is shallow but with plenty of surface area & oxygen .

    While one day I'll redo my pond to make it deeper , I believe current , oxygen levels and stocking load all factor just about equally when it comes to getting the most out of our Koi .

    I understand Tropicals & Koi are different , just sharing a point .
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