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Thread: crossing

  1. #1
    Nisai
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    crossing

    i was wondering if anyone could have any helpful advice on how to cross different koi varieties and what the offspring would you get eg showa x sanke =kohaku sanke showa among others

  2. #2
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    I thought for quite a while as to how best to answer your inquirery. I realize your interested in trying to learn, and i didn't want to dismiss it,
    yet the answers are complex and depend on what your trying to accomplish. Crossing genetics takes time. Maybe you cross a sanke with a showa with the idea of improving your sumi for your showa line. It takes time for the male or female of your choice that carries what your looking for to mature sexually before you can proceed. maybe the quality of sumi is there but it expresses itself in sumi looking like sanke. Not gonna be acceptable on hard line showa fans.

    Momotaro's brand beni was derived from crossing sanke and kohaku and it took awhile to remove the sumi from the kohaku.

    So to answer your question I would need to know what is the exact individual your trying to create to produce what you want to be dominant in your dream koi. sumi? beni? Shiroji..... So often we can say cross and asagi with a kohaku to get aigoromo. But that would be like going to a boeing engineer developing the 787 and say let's use what the wright brothers did at kittyhawk to get flight. You want aigoromo, breed it back to Aigoromo and get "it". That way the wheel doesn't have to be invented.

    probably not the answer you were expecting but when you cross genetics you get lots of unique individuals. And to find them you have to go thru hundreds of thousands of fry. Then after they are old enough to breed you find out that they do not seem to transfer the wanted genes via their current mate and you keep trying others to see if you get something to clique. It may or may not happen.

    many is the time all japan GC's are used as breeders with nill results.

    Nuff rambling, maybe there's something in there that will not answer your question to your satisfaction but open a few doors for understaning into the challenge production is.

    Hopefully bradley will have some insight to continue to offer some insight.
    Dick Benbow

  3. #3
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree.10 View Post
    i was wondering if anyone could have any helpful advice on how to cross different koi varieties and what the offspring would you get eg showa x sanke =kohaku sanke showa among others
    Just my opinion and probably not the answer you are expecting but when you (amateur breeder) cross Koi varieties you will get a lot of junk fish.

    The reason is you will be undoing years of "selective breeding" by professional breeders.

    Another way of thinking about it is what would you expect if you crossed different dog varieties ie: a Boxer x Collie?

    On the other hand, it is fun and a learning experience to raise Koi fry, but it has been my experience that the majority of the fish produced will end up in the local pet store feeder goldfish bin.

  4. #4
    Nisai
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    i have a gin matsuba and a aka matsuba would it be alright to cross them and what are the possible offspring

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    You would be crossing a white fish with a red fish, and a metallic fish with a non-metallic one, plus the matsuba scalation, so there is black in the mix. Both come from different lines of breeding that are not known. The Gin Matsuba could be from a Kujaku base and the Aka Matsuba could be from a Kohaku base. Both have Asagi in them, as that gives the matsuba scales. So, the chances are pretty good that you would get a whole lot of fish of no particular variety (mutts). I think the best hope would be for a Kujaku. If you are seriously interested in spawning some koi, realizing it is a huge amount of work to raise the fry and that a huge amount of space is needed, you really would be more likely to produce something worth keeping around if you bred like to like, as Dick suggested.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    I've got to agree with everything that's been said already. If you want to try your hand at home breeding, crossing is a terrible place to start. You will throw 99.9% junk, have no real idea of what "good" will look like due to inexperience, and wind up wasting a lot of time and energy. Breeding Koi within their own type gives you a much better chance of at least modest success and while the number of decent pond grade fish will still be low at least you can learn something along the way.

  7. #7
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    Buy the book Nishikigoi Mondo and read up. Cross whatever with whatever. It doesn’t really matter at your level of experience. You will get vastly more fish then you can handle, just cull for the cute ones. You’ll learn enough that next year you’ll be ready to make the second round of mistakes (me I well into third year mistakes). They’ve got a slight head start on us in Japan, I figure I am about 42 years behind the power curve, you’re at 50 (but NM will gain you 5 years for $140, cheap). Go get ‘em kego.

  8. #8
    Sansai redman's Avatar
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    Sure sounds like fun and i'd love to try it but for now I'll leave it to the pros. What would you do with all the culls?

  9. #9
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree.10 View Post
    i have a gin matsuba and a aka matsuba would it be alright to cross them and what are the possible offspring
    You need to go ahead and try breeding Koi so that you can see how large the percent of junk Koi is produced.

    It is fun and a learning experience and will give you an appreciation of the efforts of professional Koi breeders and an insight to all the baby Koi that are culled in breeding fancy Koi.

  10. #10
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redman View Post
    Sure sounds like fun and i'd love to try it but for now I'll leave it to the pros. What would you do with all the culls?
    See: Home Spawning of Koi which later appeared in KoiUSA.

    I had the opportunity to visit Dr. Caswell's home and breeding operation.
    In the article "culling" and "discards" usually meant "kill".

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