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Thread: Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    Maybe things have changed but I cannot agree that as of 2010 Koi breeders' facilities are free of hikui and shimmies, sorry.

    I've also spoken to a very well known breeder that will not use Matsunosuke bloodline for Sanke as he believes that Koi from it all too frequently end up with hikui, i.e. it's in the bloodline.
    Apologies Mark, I must have been going to the wrong breeders since '77.

    So there's a lot of it about then on the Koi for sale up there?

    I did speak to a guy who has just returned a couple of days back, he said he didn't see any traces of either in Yamakoshi over the last 10 days or so?

    Oh well........

    Peter Waddington.

  2. #122
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    If I knew the cause and how to treat shimmies I would be a billionaire overnight.
    My guess it has something to do with:


    overactive melanocytes
    melanophores
    light (all) absorbing qualities
    defective proteins
    UV radiation both UVA and UVB
    direct and indirect DNA damage


    PS, I cheated and used outside sources...even some Google

  3. #123
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Rather in need of editing, Waddy, and a number of points are not too clear, but the overall theme and conclusions do come across clearly. You have always been effective in your use of language.

    Putting aside Mark's contrary observations, I am left wondering ...

    Why does it take 3 years for a few handfuls of crud in a small filter to cause shimi and hikkui, while the raceway filters at many breeders are chock full of decomposing crap for months of exposure at far higher "crud per liter" ratios. They really need to use those pressure washers to get them cleaned out.

    Why does my Maruyama Kohaku have shimi issues while the other three Kohaku in the pond do not?

    Why has the incidence of hikkui in the ponds of hobbyists in my area gone down after the ponds were shaded, with no change in filtration systems?

    Then, I recall articles in Rinko from the 1980s in which breeders talk about returning koi with hikkui to the mudponds to 'cure' it, but I don't recall them ever suggesting to treat shimmies that way. They talk about how they just use a fingernail to scratch one off before they take it to a show... But why would they need to do that to a koi they were taking to a show unless the shimi developed while the koi was in their care? I guess they do pick up some koi from customers' ponds at times.

    In any event, whatever the answers to these wonderings may be, I do not think anyone can logically disagree with the fundamental point that the best system and maintenance procedures are ones that eliminate all the waste and crud as quickly as possible. Whether perfection on this score can prevent or eliminate shimmies and hikkui, I am left uncertain, but I am sure it is the best environment for the koi.

    So, I am not aligned with your reasoning, but fully accept that what is best for the koi is having the best water.

    [ Now, whether your ERIC filter is the saviour over all other sorts of filters in existence, I cannot say. I've not used it. I'm looking forward to learning the results attained by those who use ERIC for the requisite 3 years.]

  4. #124
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    Maybe things have changed but I cannot agree that as of 2010 Koi breeders' facilities are free of hikui and shimmies, sorry.

    I've also spoken to a very well known breeder that will not use Matsunosuke bloodline for Sanke as he believes that Koi from it all too frequently end up with hikui, i.e. it's in the bloodline.
    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    Apologies Mark, I must have been going to the wrong breeders since '77.

    So there's a lot of it about then on the Koi for sale up there?

    I did speak to a guy who has just returned a couple of days back, he said he didn't see any traces of either in Yamakoshi over the last 10 days or so?

    Oh well........

    Peter Waddington.
    Maybe Mark just imagined the whole thing. Yeah, that must be it

    While much of what you pointed out in your post has merit (we preach water quality and regular maintenance endlessly here) none of it proffers an answer beyond what you have seen. Mark has seen different and he does get serious access at times when dealers/customers are NOT invited. Mike and others have pointed out experiences that don't line up with your conclusions in the least.

    What does any of this mean?
    As I stated before, "The Breeders aren't IDIOTS!"
    The fact that you never "see" shimmies or hikkui at breeders facilities proves that they don't invite you to purchase fish with such obvious demerits. Looking through thousands of Nissai on the 15th that were harvested on the 14th means exactly what? It would mean to me that any shimmies or indications of hikkui would either be segregated away for further attention or in the case of shimmies...fingernail flicked away as they were transferred. Not terribly complicated.
    Does eric have long fingernails?

    Mike's one (and only one) with come-and-go shimmies in a very well established pond that is NEVER dried out but well maintained would seem to indicate a modest genetic predisposition on that one Koi that is absent from the others in his care.
    Does eric re-write DNA strands?

    His report of the improvement others in his area have seen once their ponds were shaded from heavy sunlight would also indicate a linkage to overexposure to UV radiation.
    Does eric neutralize UVA/UVB?

    While we all recognize that "Your NAME is Peter Waddington" and that presumably you get "special access" enjoyed by none other...except for this important fact.
    Their names are Sakai, Omosako, Maeda, Hasegawa, etc...
    Their access is "more special" than yours or anyone elses.
    That being said there is no denying that "You do have a very good eye Gaijin"
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  5. #125
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    Peter,
    I have read through your lengthy post (twice in fact). Although it is somewhat hard to follow being cut and pasted from elsewhere (not being critical since I to would do such on a topic I have answered in the past elsewhere). The only problem is that it is a tad hard to follow who is saying what. That being said, I think your previous comments here (and there) are te following:

    1) No shimis or hikui on freshly harvested koi in Japan

    2) Only shimis and Hikui in collector's ponds after 30 or so months.

    Your conclusion if I follow is then that both are caused by dirty filters based soley on these observations and without regard to other possibly differences between these two environments? You also (I think) do not believe there is any genetic link to either of these issues?

    What then do you believe it is about "dirty filters" that cause each of these? Fungal, Bacterial, viral or something else?

    Why do you think that some koi are affected while others are not (for both hikui and shimis together or individually)?

    If due to dirty filters of specific brands, why do not all koi in ponds (or even single koi in these ponds) with those brand of filters get Hikui or Shimis?

    Do not get me wrong, as you know I have been a long time subscriber to your style of pond design (with a few added twists of my own...pun intended (modified Infiltration design with cyclonic currents). One drain, one set of filters, one pump multipied for pond size increases. My other twist is in turn over rates (you recommended 2 to three hours where I believe in much faster turn over rates for quicker solids removal and lower ambient adverse nutrient levels.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  6. #126
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    I was thinking after reading Peter's reply and the several ones that followed. Lets say for a minute that Peter is correct and he very well could be,,,i have very limited experience with both. Peter brings up the point that the japanese ponds are steam cleaned every 9 months. We set up our pond systems to remove the waste as quickly as possible and then with a sieve it gets removed from the water column or when we dump settlement chambers.

    The main difference that I can see between our ponds quickly removing the waste and what peter describes in Japan is that the algae and buidup on the sides of our enclosed systems, stays in the system. Hence the power washing in japan removes the algae and starts a fresh system every year.

    Could algae or some of the nutrients and things trapped on our pond walls by the algae contribute to shimis and hikui?
    Member of IKONA
    Supporter of Koi Usa/AKCA

  7. #127
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Wow, it is a wild goose chase of mega proportions. I rubbed feces on my face and the walls as a child. Does this explain the liver spots and my head and hands?
    I believe these cell abnormalities take a period of time to expose or manifest on certain koi. I would think the turn-over of koi in Japan would not make it the best hunting grounds for spotting Shimmies and hikkui.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    Maybe things have changed but I cannot agree that as of 2010 Koi breeders' facilities are free of hikui and shimmies, sorry.

    I've also spoken to a very well known breeder that will not use Matsunosuke bloodline for Sanke as he believes that Koi from it all too frequently end up with hikui, i.e. it's in the bloodline.
    On our many trips to Japan, I have seen shimi's on kohaku's. I also have spoken to a breeder regarding Hikui, and he also believes that hikui is in the bloodline, as Mark has stated.

    I will agree, that I think their are enviromental triggers, poor water quality being the number 1 trigger for hikui.

  9. #129
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    You are correct about the format of the post I made, as I said it was a mix of other points made on another forum that were copied/pasted. I wasn't best pleased with the final format myself - apologies.

    I really cannot recall how many Koi that myself, customers who came over with me and customers who bought from me whilst I was in Japan were kept by the breeders for one to three years but I do know that not even a single one of these were harvested with either of these two problems.

    I have no idea why the reference to those four breeders has been thrown in the pot, it certainly has no bearing on the thread. Two were featured in KK back in '95 although the actual interviews were made in '87. I brought Omosako and Hiroji Sakai over to the UK in '85. The only one I have seen just once is Momotaro although I have met the man at shows often.

    PW.

  10. #130
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    I just remembered this old thread and post.... Perhaps barbara's thoughts have some merit??


    thefishlady
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    Food for Koi & food for thought
    I have been wanting to post the following for quite some time, time was lacking up to now but today with our So Cal downpour, I am captive inside so I might as well post my weird discovery.
    For the longest time I have had issue with regular Koi food, several years ago I was attempting to make a food based on apple snail meat, my belief was that it was a better & natural protein for Koi than ocean fish meal. I have strange beliefs, Roark can attest to that. One of my beliefs is in ancestral DNA memory, Koi being carp and coming originally from East European rivers, their ancestral preferred diet is crustaceans, worms, vegetation and so on. While I was trying to figure out a way of getting a "different" food manufactured, Jasper at Evolution Aqua was already in the process of having EA food made.
    As soon as I had the opportunity, back in June 2008; I started feeding my Koi the EA Show. Within a few weeks, to my amazement; several of my female Koi showed a reduction in HIKKUI. I called Mystic, wrote to Jasper as I was absolutely convinced the food had assisted.
    I have brought my theory up one more notch. Many Koi develop HIKKUI over time, it is always the best and most expensive fish; kind of cruel and sad.
    I have noticed that only females develop HIKKUI and generally they are either at their sexual peak, sexually mature and/or over 5 years old. HIKKUI only occurs in fish which carry the HI gene or have it somewhere in their DNA even if they are a Shiro Muji....I have come to compare female Koi to women that are going through menopause. The level of hormones starts dropping and many women complain of skin issues, even acne as the balance is off.
    Perhaps something very similar happens with the female Koi and here is the big Thefishlady theory, the EA Show food has the proper protein and nutrients which, again according to me (!) brings the female Koi's hormones back in balance thus improves the skin and thus makes the HIKKUI disappear.
    Of my 4 female Koi with HIKKUI, 2 have completely healed, the 2 others are well on their way.
    The improvements are better noticed in warm weather when the fish eat more and are active. Sorry I could not post this during the Summer, I was too busy.
    It will not happen overnight, fish are like people and respond differently, I would like others to try my theory and see if they also notice a serious improvement within 6 months. This can be a project for 2010.
    EA Show is expensive, consider it insurance and well worth the investment if it saves your fish from disfiguration. Of my Koi, the one's that best responded are a Showa and Agoromo, the Kohaku & Goshiki are better but slower at healing. The HIKKUI spots were as high as 3 millimeters and even blistering, now the spots are flush with the skin and only a pale pink shaddow appears.

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