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Thread: Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku

  1. #231
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    Ah, so you are implying it is possibly a 'personal' thing that's only peculiar to 'your' pond?

    For example 'your' pond takes a shine to Hoshikin Kohaku that produce no signs of shimi but rejects all others that are hopeless?

    Your neighbours, with identical water 'softness' as yours, loathe Hoshikin Kohaku that produce endless shimi but love all the others that do not.

    All this 'reasoning' could go on ad-infinitum unless we begin to realise that no two systems are ever identical - and there, in my humble opinion, is the key.

    Alternatively should we give a list of names of ALL Koi enthusiasts to ALL Kohaku breeders in the world in order to tailor their offsprings for all water conditions that are peculiar to each individual pond?

    We are now getting into the realms of total stupidity.

    Back to the original statement which is you will never find shimi/hikui on thousands upon thousands of Koi for sale in all the Japanese breeder's indoor ponds - apart from two of course.

    Now, is it their 'fault' for achieving this or is it our 'fault' for destroying this?

    Is there just the remotest of outside possibilities that it has something to do with our pond systems, the age of them and the attention to cleanliness given by tens of thousands of individual and unique owners?

    OR

    Why not simply raise matters such as KH/GH; RO; TDS; DOC's and all the other aquarium-related matters to the Japanese breeders themselves?

    Go on - run it by them - PLEASE!

    'I mean I thought this was a darned good explanation
    a REAL attempt at communication
    and ME I only had me schooling 'til the time I was ten!

    But the Bullfrog just before he walked away
    Well I could have sworn I heard him say...
    ..your world is still in the tadpole stage my friend'

    P.W.
    well i posted my thoughts on other thread but for here short version

    YES

    i do believe that what works in one pond will not work in another pond. and not stupid.
    tie this works in one pond but not in another
    sumi.how come some people can never get it to come up and some its the most greatest think in their pond.i would think same would hold true weather you power wash clean a pond or not.
    screw neighbor thing.my indoor and outdoor pond are totally different same water source one has a softner on other straight well water and different filters and different maintence.
    side note my new indoor pond developed shimi on 2 koi in first years so i am not a believer in the 30 month rule thing. on hikui side on 1 koi(sanke) had hikkui when outside pond but built new pond indoors and it stopped spreading so i would relate not the new pond thing but to UV rays and sunshine hits pond but came through UV protection glass but again only 1 koi so could be chance or related??????
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  2. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Peter,
    Why is it youu have to resort to personal attacks verses informed conversation. Who said I had niaghbors with the same line of Kohaku and one of our kohkaus got a shimi and the other didn't? You imply cleanliness of fillters/pond is a cause. Why would identical ponds/filtters but different breeders have different results? I intentionally stayed away from the use of "breeder" and indtead used "line" of Kohaku, The resaon? because breeders can use different and multiple pairings, each with different genetics and even within the same pairings, sone may get the recessive genes and others not. A line with very low (or no) incidence of shimis for given water parameters would be preferable. I would be happy to draw out genetic propensities for you if necessary to help you understand?

    As for your suggestion of talks with breeders? I think perhaps they have a better understanding of genetics than you do at this point. Afterall, they work with and test different pairings to achieve their desired results.

    Now, let's discuss this little statements of yours:



    I answered this early in the thread. Mud ponds and water sources in the mountains of Niigata is soft water. Based on my point of view, there would thus naturally be less propensity for shimis to appear under these circumstances. That would explain why you have never seen them.

    Again, to my point (which your statements above are actually helping to prove, in a matter of speaking, yes, it is our harder water that is ruining them, after all, again to my point, they breed for the reesults in THEIR water, not ours.

    And finally, If not a genetic factor, why would not all koi get shimis, even in the dirtiest or even the cleanest of water?

    I agree that it is our pond systems .....and the WATER in such. There is absolutely no correlation possible however that shimis have anything to do with the age of a pond or the maintenance of such....oither than of course because you (and only you) have said it to be so.
    I have checked my postings on this a dozen times and cannot see any personal attacks coming from ME unless in reply to personal attacks first made to me by others. I have certainly made no personal attacks on you.

    If you check my post, I said 'For example' - if your neighbour etc. etc.
    I did not say you HAD a neighbour etc.

    I really do not know why you keep repeating the 'soft water' thing? Once more I have SEEN hard water mud ponds in many areas of Japan - they do not produce shimi.

    Some weeks back I helped harvest a mud pond in the USA and brought some 300 large Koi into indoor ponds. That water was the hardest I have ever tested and not one shimi could be found! That also applied to hikui.

    If you are so sure soft water is the key then why not produce it in your system? It's not so difficult and then you can carry out experiments with this.

    And later when you discover that it still produces shimi you still have the genetic argument to fall back on as an excuse.

    Whilst you are deliberating between the two but doing nothing about it, I'll get on doing what I am actually DOING!

    P.W.

  3. #233
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Peter,
    The factors you've keyed on with regard to Hobbyist Concrete ponds vs. Breeders Concrete ponds revolve primarily around time and cleaning. The typical Hobbyist pond, once established, is rarely (if ever) drained and power washed like the Breeders ponds.

    Do you advise your clients to emulate the Breeders methodology of occasionally draining, power washing, and drying out their ponds? Do you alternately believe that simply dumping the filter bays on a daily basis is adequate, even for a pond older than 30 months to prevent Shimmies and/or Hikui?

    I mentioned once before the story which you have shared in the past about a Hikui ridden Koi that came to your care which eventually found its way into a poorly filtered and unmaintained pond you had. If I recall your account of her life there correctly the water was so green that she was unseen and completely forgotten for a considerable time. You told this story at the time as an illustration of the miraculous healing of her Hikui in what could only be described as an ill maintained and doubtless "dirty" pond.

    How does this add up to your theories and to what do you credit her results in light of your current recommended approach?
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  4. #234
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    I have checked my postings on this a dozen times and cannot see any personal attacks coming from ME unless in reply to personal attacks first made to me by others. I have certainly made no personal attacks on you.

    If you check my post, I said 'For example' - if your neighbour etc. etc.
    I did not say you HAD a neighbour etc.

    I really do not know why you keep repeating the 'soft water' thing? Once more I have SEEN hard water mud ponds in many areas of Japan - they do not produce shimi.

    Some weeks back I helped harvest a mud pond in the USA and brought some 300 large Koi into indoor ponds. That water was the hardest I have ever tested and not one shimi could be found! That also applied to hikui.

    If you are so sure soft water is the key then why not produce it in your system? It's not so difficult and then you can carry out experiments with this.

    And later when you discover that it still produces shimi you still have the genetic argument to fall back on as an excuse.

    Whilst you are deliberating between the two but doing nothing about it, I'll get on doing what I am actually DOING!

    P.W.
    Peter,
    Whether you realize it or not, the points you continue to make su[port my premiss and yet you have given little in the way of factual basis to support your dirty system premis of producing shimis.

    Case in point, YOu have SEEN hard water mud ponds that produce no shimi. My premis is that a breeder with "hard water" that triggers the genetics to produce shimi become visible to the reeder. This then leads the breeder to be able to breed out these genetics, or at least make the propensity for such lessened.....which is my point. Simply read the title of this thread.

    As far as producing soft water? Gee, didn't I say this already, repeatedly in fact? Will this guarantee no shimis? Of course not. Can it lessen the incidence of such? Yes it can, especially in conjucntion with lines less likely to produce such.

    Now, if you are so positive that it is dirty systems that produce such, regardless of genetics or water hardness, what is it about your premiss makes it so....other than you say it is? Are shimis fungal, bacterial, viral or some other factor more common in dirty systems or simply affected by these elevated levels more common in dirty systems?
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  5. #235
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    I mentioned once before the story which you have shared in the past about a Hikui ridden Koi that came to your care which eventually found its way into a poorly filtered and unmaintained pond you had. If I recall your account of her life there correctly the water was so green that she was unseen and completely forgotten for a considerable time. You told this story at the time as an illustration of the miraculous healing of her Hikui in what could only be described as an ill maintained and doubtless "dirty" pond.
    ... and/or protection from UV radiation.

  6. #236
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    ... and/or protection from UV radiation.
    Yeah, I kind of mentioned the UV filtering of "Pea Soup Green Water" when I asked him about it before. Apparently "filtered" sunlight (green or otherwise) is unworthy of a response.

  7. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Peter,
    The factors you've keyed on with regard to Hobbyist Concrete ponds vs. Breeders Concrete ponds revolve primarily around time and cleaning. The typical Hobbyist pond, once established, is rarely (if ever) drained and power washed like the Breeders ponds.
    Correct, the breeders drain and steam clean both pond and filter because they are left to dry throughout summer. If they did not clean the pond itself and just drained it, the algae on the walls and base would just die and turn brown which is far more difficult to remove. I would not advocate destroying the algae on our ponds though but I do advocate cleaning the filter completely and often.
    Do you advise your clients to emulate the Breeders methodology of occasionally draining, power washing, and drying out their ponds?

    Do you alternately believe that simply dumping the filter bays on a daily basis is adequate, even for a pond older than 30 months to prevent Shimmies and/or Hikui?

    Yes I do.
    I mentioned once before the story which you have shared in the past about a Hikui ridden Koi that came to your care which eventually found its way into a poorly filtered and unmaintained pond you had. If I recall your account of her life there correctly the water was so green that she was unseen and completely forgotten for a considerable time. You told this story at the time as an illustration of the miraculous healing of her Hikui in what could only be described as an ill maintained and doubtless "dirty" pond.
    The condition on most of the Koi in this instance was what I term as 'Sandpaper Skin' which actually feels rough to the touch. In amongst some of this were traces of hikui. There were 19 Koi in total that came into my pond in May 2009 not in the best of condition.
    I did not turn on any U/V to the pond but kept two of the four banks of filters running and flushed ALL four drains daily - I assure you they were not simply dumped into filthy water but I did manage to produce good, filtered green water for some four months.
    All Koi did come out VASTLY improved.

    How does this add up to your theories and to what do you credit her results in light of your current recommended approach?
    My theories were confirmed two weeks after the Koi came into my pond and we removed the filter system that these 19 Koi had been kept in for some three years or so. It was not until we removed all the media that we could see what was below. If you look at the pictures on this thread from Marco, I'd suggest these were six times as bad. This was not 100% the fault of a lousy system which it was but 50% due to the fault of the system and 50% due to the lack of maintenance.
    Simply putting the Koi into a volume of water four times that of the original pond plus daily maintenance and the benefits of filtered green water is the reason as to why these improvements were effected.
    I do appreciate that doing this daily dump would be very difficult to do with larger filter units for obvious reasons.
    P.W.

  8. #238
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    Correct, the breeders drain and steam clean both pond and filter because they are left to dry throughout summer. If they did not clean the pond itself and just drained it, the algae on the walls and base would just die and turn brown which is far more difficult to remove. I would not advocate destroying the algae on our ponds though but I do advocate cleaning the filter completely and often.
    Does that include completely cleaning the filter media?

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Peter,
    Whether you realize it or not, the points you continue to make su[port my premiss and yet you have given little in the way of factual basis to support your dirty system premis of producing shimis.

    Case in point, YOu have SEEN hard water mud ponds that produce no shimi. My premis is that a breeder with "hard water" that triggers the genetics to produce shimi become visible to the reeder. This then leads the breeder to be able to breed out these genetics, or at least make the propensity for such lessened.....which is my point. Simply read the title of this thread.
    Do you actually BELIEVE that any breeder on this planet would try to BREED OUT said 'adverse genetics' in his parents????

    Do you really BELIEVE they have the expertise, the time and everything else needed to do this???

    IF, and I say IF, the parents did produce these 'adverse genetics' they would be tipped into the Shinano rapidly!!!

    After that they would source new parents.


    As far as producing soft water? Gee, didn't I say this already, repeatedly in fact? Will this guarantee no shimis? Of course not. Can it lessen the incidence of such? Yes it can, especially in conjucntion with lines less likely to produce such.
    You speak a lot of 'LINES' - I suggest you do not use that term today and instead refer to the parent Koi used by each individual breeder who has continued to improve on his parents year in and year out. If there were any original lines there, they will have been so diluted by now that it has no importance at all.

    Now, if you are so positive that it is dirty systems that produce such, regardless of genetics or water hardness, what is it about your premiss makes it so....other than you say it is?

    Are shimis fungal, bacterial, viral or some other factor more common in dirty systems or simply affected by these elevated levels more common in dirty systems?
    If I read this as I have read it then this is what I have been saying all through this thread. I do believe that these symptoms are FAR more likely to occur in badly-maintained filter systems. So YES.

    P.W.

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Does that include completely cleaning the filter media?
    YES, taking it all out of the filter chambers, cleaning it thoroughly and leaving it to dry all summer.

    P.W.

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