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Thread: Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku

  1. #241
    Honmei
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schildkoi
    Peter,
    Whether you realize it or not, the points you continue to make su[port my premiss and yet you have given little in the way of factual basis to support your dirty system premis of producing shimis.

    Case in point, YOu have SEEN hard water mud ponds that produce no shimi. My premis is that a breeder with "hard water" that triggers the genetics to produce shimi become visible to the reeder. This then leads the breeder to be able to breed out these genetics, or at least make the propensity for such lessened.....which is my point. Simply read the title of this thread.
    Do you actually BELIEVE that any breeder on this planet would try to BREED OUT said 'adverse genetics' in his parents????

    Do you actually believe that breeders do not try and breed out adverse genetics? You mentioed how they "improve," how do they do this without breeding out adverse genetics?

    Do you really BELIEVE they have the expertise, the time and everything else needed to do this???


    Yes, afterall, that is what they have done for adverse genetics for generations!

    IF, and I say IF, the parents did produce these 'adverse genetics' they would be tipped into the Shinano rapidly!!!

    After that they would source new parents.


    Again Peter, you help to prove my premise. They can only do this if the adverse results are apparent to them. If they have softer water conditions, the propensity to see this or see in large enough numbers may not be there and thus they cannot or would not even consider attempting to doo something that they do not percieve as a problem

    As far as producing soft water? Gee, didn't I say this already, repeatedly in fact? Will this guarantee no shimis? Of course not. Can it lessen the incidence of such? Yes it can, especially in conjucntion with lines less likely to produce such.
    You speak a lot of 'LINES' - I suggest you do not use that term today and instead refer to the parent Koi used by each individual breeder who has continued to improve on his parents year in and year out. If there were any original lines there, they will have been so diluted by now that it has no importance at all.



    You are making an assumption that I mean "bloodlines." I don't. Bloodlines indicate over all genetics and you are correct in tat they are very diluted and mixed/matched to the point that the term has little meaning. Genetic "lines" on the otherhand, specifically for shimis, is a traceable map for a specific trait, regardless of bloodline.

    Now, if you are so positive that it is dirty systems that produce such, regardless of genetics or water hardness, what is it about your premiss makes it so....other than you say it is?

    Are shimis fungal, bacterial, viral or some other factor more common in dirty systems or simply affected by these elevated levels more common in dirty systems?



    If I read this as I have read it then this is what I have been saying all through this thread. I do believe that these symptoms are FAR more likely to occur in badly-maintained filter systems. So YES.

    Yes to what? Fungal, Bacterial, Viral or other factor (please name)?
    P.W.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  2. #242
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    "Does that include completely cleaning the filter media?"

    YES, taking it all out of the filter chambers, cleaning it thoroughly and leaving it to dry all summer.

    P.W.
    WOW!! That would be drastic for the average Koi hobbyist!
    Unless they had conditioned clean filter media on hand when they made the change.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    WOW!! That would be drastic for the average Koi hobbyist!
    Unless they had conditioned clean filter media on hand when they made the change.
    Yes it would be drastic for Mr. Average, wouldn't it Mr. Wide-eyed?

    That's why I'm saying dump it daily and then the nine month steam clean situation would never arise at all!

    P.W.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schildkoi
    Peter,
    Whether you realize it or not, the points you continue to make su[port my premiss and yet you have given little in the way of factual basis to support your dirty system premis of producing shimis.

    Case in point, YOu have SEEN hard water mud ponds that produce no shimi. My premis is that a breeder with "hard water" that triggers the genetics to produce shimi become visible to the reeder. This then leads the breeder to be able to breed out these genetics, or at least make the propensity for such lessened.....which is my point. Simply read the title of this thread.
    Do you actually BELIEVE that any breeder on this planet would try to BREED OUT said 'adverse genetics' in his parents????

    Do you actually believe that breeders do not try and breed out adverse genetics? You mentioed how they "improve," how do they do this without breeding out adverse genetics?

    Have you considered that they have NO IDEA at all as to what YOUR 'adverse genetics' are?

    Do you really BELIEVE they have the expertise, the time and everything else needed to do this???


    Yes, afterall, that is what they have done for adverse genetics for generations!

    See above please!

    IF, and I say IF, the parents did produce these 'adverse genetics' they would be tipped into the Shinano rapidly!!!

    After that they would source new parents.

    Again Peter, you help to prove my premise. They can only do this if the adverse results are apparent to them. If they have softer water conditions, the propensity to see this or see in large enough numbers may not be there and thus they cannot or would not even consider attempting to doo something that they do not percieve as a problem

    See above please.

    As far as producing soft water? Gee, didn't I say this already, repeatedly in fact? Will this guarantee no shimis? Of course not. Can it lessen the incidence of such? Yes it can, especially in conjucntion with lines less likely to produce such.
    You speak a lot of 'LINES' - I suggest you do not use that term today and instead refer to the parent Koi used by each individual breeder who has continued to improve on his parents year in and year out. If there were any original lines there, they will have been so diluted by now that it has no importance at all.



    You are making an assumption that I mean "bloodlines." I don't. Bloodlines indicate over all genetics and you are correct in tat they are very diluted and mixed/matched to the point that the term has little meaning. Genetic "lines" on the otherhand, specifically for shimis, is a traceable map for a specific trait, regardless of bloodline.

    You are making a complete fool of yourself.

    Now, if you are so positive that it is dirty systems that produce such, regardless of genetics or water hardness, what is it about your premiss makes it so....other than you say it is?

    Are shimis fungal, bacterial, viral or some other factor more common in dirty systems or simply affected by these elevated levels more common in dirty systems?



    If I read this as I have read it then this is what I have been saying all through this thread. I do believe that these symptoms are FAR more likely to occur in badly-maintained filter systems. So YES.

    Yes to what? Fungal, Bacterial, Viral or other factor (please name)?

    FOR THE VERY LAST TIME, LISTEN TO UNCLE PETER.

    I DON"T CARE 'WHAT' THEY ARE AND YOU ALSO DON'T 'KNOW' 'WHAT' THEY ARE.

    THIS, RIGHT NOW, HAS NO IMPORTANCE AT ALL.

    I JUST WISH TO GIVE MY OPINONS AS TO HOW TO PREVENT THEM FROM CONTINUING TO DESTROY THIS HOBBY!

    Now, unless you have something to offer to this thread other than the usual, why don't you leave me alone to continue with what I am quite happy to be doing?

    I have come up with some ideas as to how to 'possibly' resolve the situation whilst you have come up with zero apart from repeating questions.

    In the meantime, you can continue to voice your questions to as many people you may come across.

    P.W.

  5. #245
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Peter,
    Are you saying that anyone who experiences Shimmies or Hikui has filthy filters and/or ponds? While I completely understand that you've no doubt encountered some rather nasty ones over the years I find it difficult to believe that is always the case where a simple shimmie pops up on a Koi. We've got some pretty OCD folks around here when it comes to maintaining an immaculate system...

  6. #246
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    Forget it!

    I have just looked at the 'views' on this thread.

    I reckon there's a few out there who listen!

    P.W.

  7. #247
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    Forget it!

    I have just looked at the 'views' on this thread.

    I reckon there's a few out there who listen!

    P.W.
    Pretty sure most of the people "viewing" this thread are just watching to see when I finally close it to end the endless bickering.
    Koi-Unit
    My personal koi page Updated 7/8/07
    ZNA Potomac Koi Club

  8. #248
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schildkoi
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schildkoi
    Peter,
    Whether you realize it or not, the points you continue to make su[port my premiss and yet you have given little in the way of factual basis to support your dirty system premis of producing shimis.

    Case in point, YOu have SEEN hard water mud ponds that produce no shimi. My premis is that a breeder with "hard water" that triggers the genetics to produce shimi become visible to the reeder. This then leads the breeder to be able to breed out these genetics, or at least make the propensity for such lessened.....which is my point. Simply read the title of this thread.
    Do you actually BELIEVE that any breeder on this planet would try to BREED OUT said 'adverse genetics' in his parents????

    Do you actually believe that breeders do not try and breed out adverse genetics? You mentioed how they "improve," how do they do this without breeding out adverse genetics?

    Have you considered that they have NO IDEA at all as to what YOUR 'adverse genetics' are?



    Have you sir considered that they absolutely do?

    Do you really BELIEVE they have the expertise, the time and everything else needed to do this???

    Yes, afterall, that is what they have done for adverse genetics for generations!

    See above please!



    See above response. LOL


    IF, and I say IF, the parents did produce these 'adverse genetics' they would be tipped into the Shinano rapidly!!!

    After that they would source new parents.

    Again Peter, you help to prove my premise. They can only do this if the adverse results are apparent to them. If they have softer water conditions, the propensity to see this or see in large enough numbers may not be there and thus they cannot or would not even consider attempting to doo something that they do not percieve as a problem

    See above please.


    See above response please.


    As far as producing soft water? Gee, didn't I say this already, repeatedly in fact? Will this guarantee no shimis? Of course not. Can it lessen the incidence of such? Yes it can, especially in conjucntion with lines less likely to produce such.
    You speak a lot of 'LINES' - I suggest you do not use that term today and instead refer to the parent Koi used by each individual breeder who has continued to improve on his parents year in and year out. If there were any original lines there, they will have been so diluted by now that it has no importance at all.


    You are making an assumption that I mean "bloodlines." I don't. Bloodlines indicate over all genetics and you are correct in tat they are very diluted and mixed/matched to the point that the term has little meaning. Genetic "lines" on the otherhand, specifically for shimis, is a traceable map for a specific trait, regardless of bloodline.

    You are making a complete fool of yourself.

    You are of course entitled to your opinion. The readers can decide who is actually making a fool of themself.

    Now, if you are so positive that it is dirty systems that produce such, regardless of genetics or water hardness, what is it about your premiss makes it so....other than you say it is?

    Are shimis fungal, bacterial, viral or some other factor more common in dirty systems or simply affected by these elevated levels more common in dirty systems?


    If I read this as I have read it then this is what I have been saying all through this thread. I do believe that these symptoms are FAR more likely to occur in badly-maintained filter systems. So YES.

    Yes to what? Fungal, Bacterial, Viral or other factor (please name)?

    FOR THE VERY LAST TIME, LISTEN TO UNCLE PETER.

    I DON"T CARE 'WHAT' THEY ARE AND YOU ALSO DON'T 'KNOW' 'WHAT' THEY ARE.

    THIS, RIGHT NOW, HAS NO IMPORTANCE AT ALL.

    I JUST WISH TO GIVE MY OPINONS AS TO HOW TO PREVENT THEM FROM CONTINUING TO DESTROY THIS HOBBY!

    That is where we differ peter. Since you have no idea what they are you can offer no educated solution. Shimis are in fact pigmentation inherent as a recessive gene (melinin sp/). Under your solution we would have no sankes, showas or any other black koi. One must understand what something is to understand how it is affected and thus how to avoid such


    Now, unless you have something to offer to this thread other than the usual, why don't you leave me alone to continue with what I am quite happy to be doing?

    I have come up with some ideas as to how to 'possibly' resolve the situation whilst you have come up with zero apart from repeating questions.

    In the meantime, you can continue to voice your questions to as many people you may come across.

    P.W.

    Hmmmm, come up with zero? Isn't that calling the kettle black? Again, I will let the readers decide who have come up with zero.



    My latest responses in green. No more questions for you Peter. I understand your position...casual observation and a guess without any substantiated knowledge. We know, your name is Peter Waddington.

    Steve Childers
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnorth View Post
    Pretty sure most of the people "viewing" this thread are just watching to see when I finally close it to end the endless bickering.
    JNorth - Close it PLEASE!

    I've had my fill of raw amateurs who really believe they are otherwise.

    Thanks, Peter Waddington.

  10. #250
    eds
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    I don't see how shimis can be purely environmental (a dirty filter) if I have four koi from the same spawning showing two different phenotypes (expressions of various genes within their genotypes) of which only one type has produced shimis. That means that this one fish must be genetically more prone to producing shimis than it's siblings so surely some kohaku can be more prone to developing them than others under the same environmental conditions?

    This does not mean that every kohaku from a certain breeder would develop shimis in a certain environmental conditions as each fish inherits different combinations of genes from its parents and expresses it in different ways so there is no guarantee that a fish from a certain breeder will produce shimis just as I'm sure there's no breeder whose fish could be guaranteed not to produce them.

    However the point someone made about breeders 'selecting' against shimis in their breeding if they see them seems very obvious to me. If a breeder has a set of fish that produce lots of offspring with shimis that he has to cull or send for 'maintenance' regularly then why wouldn't he try to select new pairs that don't do this? Obviously if the trigger(s) for shimis aren't there and that means the breeder doesn't see them (or at least see them very often) then how can he select against it? That may mean his pairs are more prone to produce shimis when under conditions that encourage their expression, or they might never produce them if the pair doesn't have that genetic make-up.

    What actually triggers the expression of shimis is another argument - there has to be a trait to produce them there in the first place that not all fish in a pond may have. Genetic factors are only expressed when something triggers them (whether that's hormones, temperature changes or some other environmental factor) so why is it so hard to believe there would be both a genetic and environmental factor to them?

    If dirty filters produce shimis then what is the actual cause from the dirt? Is it tiny elevated ammonia in which case a new pond with an immature filter would seem to be a big trigger! Is it high levels of organics, in which case a planted, rock-garden type pond might be a big trigger too (do these ponds have fish with lots of shimis?). Or does a dirty filter generate higher dissolved substances in the water (rasing the TDS) meaning those with softer water get the same effects? It seems most likely that there isn't just one critical trigger but a combination.

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