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Thread: Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I have a Kohaku that came from Japan without shimmies as nisai. After 8 months, she had one... then three. They would come and go on their own, appearing in different places from time to time. She is now close to 85cm and this month she does not have a shimmy. I last saw one on her in July. (I did not check for them in August or September.) She has been in the same pond, same water conditions, same filtration, same feeding regimen.... but they come and go for no apparent reason. Go figure.
    As a matter of interest, the pond that the nisai went into - how long had the pond been running for since inception?

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    OK, but still soft water in concrete or not in Yamakoshi.

    So, what are your thoughts about shimi? Good thought provking questions you have had but I would still like to hear your thoughts around why, why not, and contributing factors.
    Hey, I'm not the Oracle.

    I'm just asking a few questions and waiting for a few answers - that's all!

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    Hey, I'm not the Oracle.

    I'm just asking a few questions and waiting for a few answers - that's all!

    Okie dokie. Just thought with what you thought wasn't an affect, you may have some ideas what does affect shimi development.

    i remember a post/talk JR gave about how the melanin cells consolidate and depending on the amount present, , the pattern or manner in which they line up in the consolidation and the dpeth of such, differing affects in sumi come about, I would think Shimis would be along these same lines.

    It is also generally accepted that lower Ph water (less hard) is better for the skin and uster of the koi. Perhpas higher Ph and harder water also comes into play and the two are generally connected....except for the genetics involved and the propensity of such genetics themselves to possibly form shimis. Many factors I think come into play and it is not simply a 1 to one for any two factors alone.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    Shimi is melanin.

    Kohaku without any shimi include melanin pigment in its beni / Hiban.
    kohaku can not hold the beni colors without melanin pigment. Otherwise, it's a Akeme kigoi.
    Right you are-- beni is a mutation of melanin. Melanin, in this case, being an atavistic reversion of mutation red ( yellow/red mix of color cells). JR

  5. #35
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Davenport, Oklahoma
    And now we're getting somewhere...
    The "Melanin" link gets lost in the rudimentary level understanding of "Beni" as a singular aspect of color cell mutation, and that is what gets left out along the road to understanding how/why shimmies are formed and "from whence they came".
    Everyone (except maybe Rob) is pretty accepting of the fact that the morphs forming the foundation of Nishikigoi underwent genetic level changes prompted by inbreeding that began to segregate the distinct color cells from one anther, making it possible for the brown/black magoi to produce specific colors separately.
    We also know (anecdotal evidence Rob) that Kohaku, Sanke, and Showa are intentionally raised by many of the top breeders in mud ponds that yield better results for one variety than the others due to variances in mineralization, generally linked to silica/silicates where hypermelanistic enhancement is desired. (Rob, actual Scientists in Japan actually studied this so it is beyond the idle speculation of ignorant Gaijen like we).
    For us to understand shimmies as a distinct issue we need to take those fundamentals into account.
    Larry Iles

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Ah, thanks for all the information.

    So it's really only a simple combination of 'melanin' together with 'the silica/silicates where hypermelanistic enhancement is desired'.

    Is that it?

    Sounds a little complex for a layman like me but I'll give that some serious thought especially seeing it has come from the Japanese scientists mentioned.

    And yet once again, the question nags -

    Do the Japanese breeder's, and indeed several other ponds I know of, have some kind of 'by-pass' to all this monetary devaluation of many Koi?

    Just a thought.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    ���݂̌����Ƒ΍� ���̂��ݑ΍��p�X�L���P�A ���K�v�ȉh�{�f

    Google translation.....

    >>Home>>Skin problems>>Skin irritation or other advice >>Skin blotches
    SkinBlotCauses and Information

    SkinBlot. The blot is stained with black spots on the skin can thin of melanin pigment. This stain is there are different kinds depending on the cause and symptoms. Mechanism or cause the type of stain, we introduce countermeasures.

    BlotEasily area

    Prone to accumulate at the sun. And may be partly on the eyebrows and hairline. Notice to the contrary can say that the whole amount of spots, also can delay care.
    Around the eyes
    And around the eye area, the indentation between the nose and the tears are often able to hairline.
    More easily around the sun, can often be a high part of the cheekbone. May cause irritation and cosmetic pigmentation.
    Around the mouth
    Kiwa is not in your mouth, you can easily lower part of the angle of the mouth. Also it can look like the upper lip whiskers.

    BlotType ChloasmaGeneralSimiWhile many resources around to say this. The brown spots, forehead and cheeks appear symmetrically around the eyes and mouth.
    Liver spots, pigment-forming cells in the basal layer at the bottom of the epidermis (Melanocytes) Made byMelanin pigment, And increased sunburn, the stain is to be deposited into the skin.FreckleFreckles is something that can be altered by the sun itself to cells called melanocytes, to appear in children and adults.
    If you continue to get dark, bathed in ultraviolet light, or more so few careful. Many also appear around the cheeks and nose, which also appear in the body and limbs.

    In addition,So that friction melanosis washing towels and rub nylon brush, The skin has become sensitive to sunlight ovarian failure before and after menopause, women face arise lentiginosis and joined by internal and external stimuli from the body, dermatitis and ultraviolet light is hitting that part of bergamot scented There.Inflammatory pigmentationAcne and rash, burns, and inflammation cause such as atopy, pigment cells are stimulated by physical stimuli and reactive oxygen species that produces large amounts of melanin.
    Being able to discharge it is not deposited in the inflammatory hyperpigmentation, melasma and are calling for distinction. Where can I face not only appear in the body.Petal-shaped pigmentationOut through the back and shoulder, by the pea-sized stain, and then hit the beach in strong sunlight can cause excessive melanin to.
    - Emerged from a much sunlight around three months later, in his blind spot, so much so often you could not find it.Senile pigmentationCheek stain is seen from the amount of the elderly. The exact cause is unknown, but it has been said that those were due to changes in aging skin. However, there may also appear as early as the 20s, "pigmentation of photoaging," also called.
    Mino Noshi more skin in this way, the deposits were left in the skin pigment melanin produced by the sun. It can reduce skin damage by ultraviolet light thanks to the pigment melanin. Melanin is necessary so there is, and that leaves a portion of skin pigmentBlotIt becomes.

    And exposed to ultraviolet light in the cellActive oxygen(Due to oxidation of the aging body rust) occurs, cells called melanocytes are stimulated to produce melanin.

    However, not subject to ultraviolet light causes of reactive oxygen species are much more. So, be careful not to stain, in addition to ultraviolet light, "That can damage the skin""Excessive generation of reactive oxygen species"Be careful and good.

    Excessive free radicals can damage the skin cells themselves or other gene spots, excessive generation of reactive oxygen species as well as well as for the health of the entire body is a blot should be avoided.

    Effects of ultravioletUV careDamage the skin and causeActive oxygenDamage the skin and cause

    However, skinMetabolismIf active, but melanin is also emitted when the fall off becomes horny epidermis about 28 day period, if the metabolism by stimulating Nibutsu bathed in ultraviolet light from the outside or in excess, emissions are not well.

    You think about it, that Nibutsu skin metabolism, the skin is not healthy. Unhealthy skin and dry skin, poor metabolism are prone to the effects of ultraviolet rays, it protects us from ultraviolet rays that skin cells can grow and a lot of melanin.

    In other words, unhealthy skin condition that Ishi Yasu melanin deposition is the cause of the stain. To form a healthy skin and skin metabolism is essential minerals and vitamins. Vitamins and minerals do not work so well, especially with sufficient intake of minerals.

    → vitamins and mineralsMineral&VitaminSkin WorksAndMetabolism

    I canSimiMeasures to

    I can not give up the stain, if the proper care, they can also obscure thin. For exampleVitamin CIsReduce the effect of melanin pigmentThere is, to prevent stains and clever enough to be thin and had stains. Since promoting the synthesis of collagen and gives the skin firmness.

    Among the vitamin C,Vitamin C derivative(Stabilized vitamin C) is a traditional vitamin C absorption dozens of times higher compared to the effect of preventing the oxidation (oxygen and its scavenging activity) because some are said to be better.
    Vitamin C good care of the cosmetic formulation derivatives.

    And you can easily make your skin of blemishes, it is also important to absorb vitamin C from the body. Vitamin C is the amount of food intake need only be difficult in such a way to supplement good quality nutritional supplements.

    In the case of women, also associated with female hormones and melanin. Approximately two weeks before the next ovulation period is the pigment melanin can be easy in relation to hormones.
    Easily the spots and freckles during pregnancy also, MSH (melanocyte stimulating hormone), also increased to nearly 10 times the normal hormone, is made easier because a lot of melanin state. UV sensitive than usual This is likely to increase the spots and freckles. During pregnancy, let the more usual UV Protection.
    Notes stain protection
    Simi measures that I think many people who use whitening cosmetics, but only in whitening skin care may not have! Damage spots and wrinkles are not only the fact is that appearance. As already mentioned melanin is working to protect the body from ultraviolet rays. Spots and pigmentation is the result.

    It would be affected by ultraviolet light from the cells and blood vessels beneath the skin is damaged by UV light and would. That is, it prevents the spread ultraviolet melanin to protect cells and blood vessels.
    So by just erase spots and pigmentation in skin-lightening product is not good! Would be adversely affected body rapidly past the skin to ultraviolet rays. Beauty is just a matter of ultraviolet light is also significant negative effects on the health of not.

    ■ skin moisture to skin care
    Care is the ingredient we need to care for wounded skin whitening ingredient plus. For skin care and cosmetic ingredients is required for whitening and moisturizing ingredients. Choose from the ultraviolet to the care of the stain of such skin care products.
    In addition, improved diet or supplements, if possible, Vitamin C can help to work, you may still be supplemented with various vitamins and minerals and give to encourage the formation and regeneration of skin.

    ■ circulation
    行Ki渡Rimasen vitamins and minerals and other nutrients are ingested and poor blood circulation. You might want to massage for circulation and skin metabolism of the skin.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyen4 View Post
    New to koi hobby but I think food could be part of sumi on kohaku. Last year i used a "good" food it don't show up a lot but this year i used a low quality food and it show up on some of my kohaku.
    Vitamin C enriched koi food might help....

    Trivia 1. Color enriching koi food darken sumi color also.
    Trivia 2. Sumi color enriching koi food is coming soon, sell by Kyorin sometimes next year.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    Vitamin C enriched koi food might help....

    Trivia 1. Color enriching koi food darken sumi color also.
    Trivia 2. Sumi color enriching koi food is coming soon, sell by Kyorin sometimes next year.
    Ah! yet another viewpoint - this is the food used by most of the Japanese breeders in Yamakoshi.

    This store is in Iwamagi - the breeders ring when they need it and the store delivers.

    I assumed that this was merely basic carp pellets but perhaps it could have contained Kyorin's secret recipe for many years?

    Worth a thought also.

    Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku-breeder-koi-food.jpg

  10. #40
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Sydney, Australia
    Do Shimis appear on the head?

    Do they appear below the lateral line?

    Can you get shimis in Akeme Kigoi?

    Is there a shimi equivalent in other fish species?

    The answers to these will suggest much.

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