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Thread: Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku

  1. #71
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    There are BOD (Biological Oxygen Demand) and COD ( Chemical Oxygen Demand) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_demand .

    they say that measuring COD is much easier than measuring BOD. there are test kit available, though I have never read/heard any discussion about COD in the koi community in the U.S.

    Improve water quality testing equipment

    Water testing equipment


    Brand: Kyoritsu
    Product Code: 4505
    Pack Test (chemical oxygen demand COD) 50 pieces

    Price(Approx.): 6,500 → yen 5,850 yen (10% off)
    Points: 58 Pt
    Related Topics: Improve water quality testing equipment > Water testing equipment


    For folks who get lost in the science jargon....

    Chemical Oxygen Demand is an approach for measuring the organics in water. To be organic, the substance has carbon as a component. When an organic is oxidized, the carbon eventually becomes CO2. So, there is a test protocol that allows a measurement of the level of organics in water by seeing how much of an oxidizer is required to convert the carbon to CO2.

    The point is that high COD means there is a high level of organics. As we all have learned, getting organics out of the water is a good thing. Water changes and foam fractionating are two techniques. Dumping waste from settlement chambers can be seen as either getting the organics out, or getting rid of a source of organics. Aeration and otherwise maintaining maximum dissolved oxygen levels contribute positively by hastening the natural oxidation.

    Some folks like to test and monitor everything. For them, a COD test kit would be a wonderful present to give on some special occasion. They can have many happy hours of playing 'mad chemist in the garden'. For those who never get around to doing the testing they meant to do some day, the key thing to my mind is that getting rid of organics in the water column is important. The more you can do, the better your fish will develop. This is what maintaining the water is all about.

    ...And, yes, in theory one could go overboard in eliminating organics; but I don't see that as worth worrying over unless the person is one of those who relies on dosing potassium permanganate every week.

  2. #72
    Jumbo RobF's Avatar
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    The original question posed by this thread was “Is there a genetic predisposition to shimi?” I think that we have answered that query. Our Answer (based on long experience) is : “Could be”. At this point the answer to the more fundamental related question “What causes shimi?” which is to ask “What is shimi at a cellular level, what is it chemically, where exactly is it located, how did it get there, etc?” we can confidently answer “Don’t know”. “Don’t know” is my second favorite answer.

    Do you have a kohaku in your pond with shimi (I don’t)? This is easiest if the shimi is over a scale, just pull the scale, put that new digital microscope to work and let’s see some a close ups of the shimi and its margins. This is within the capabilities of this group (the genetics and the cellular migration parts maybe not). A couple of good pictures would likely answer many questions and make a great KoiUSA article as well (eh Steve?).

  3. #73
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    I purposely stated in my first post that I have often seen it in Japanese collector's ponds so of course it exists in Japan. In earlier times when Japan was awash with Koi dealers in the big cities I also saw it there.

    I also made it clear I have observed many harvests and stood watching right by the net as they are lifted out and taken to the transport tanks. Be assured neither of the conditions are present.

    I do not understand why you say they are 'less likely to show signs when coming out of the mud' - if they went in with either of the two conditions than they would come out with them. The mud pond would not 'remove' them.

    Again, the same question remains?
    I don't think any speaker of the English language has any more hours of observation in Japan than Waddy, so I think his observations get a great deal of weight. (That does not mean I necessarily agree with the conclusions drawn in all instances.) I can understand that fish coming out of the mud ponds would not show shimmies or hikui. As to shimmies, I don't think the breeder would return a Kohaku with shimmies to the mud, and there is logic in the notion that the water of the mudpond would deter formation of shimmies. In regard to hikkui, I have read numerous reports in old Rinko magazines about hikkui being "cured" by placing the fish in a mudpond for a season, and on occasion the fish has gone on to do well at one of the many post-harvest Fall shows, but only to have the hikkui return after a few more months. I've posted before about a personal experience of seeing what I think was hikkui disappear when the fish was kept in green water for 6 weeks or so, only to return a few months later.

    I'm not sure what Waddy means by "the mud pond would not 'remove' them." I find shimmies so unpredictable that I don't think I'd draw broad generalities about the them. As to hikkui, it seems a mud pond can temporarily eliminate symptoms. I don't think it would fully restore a Kohaku suffering from a severe case. Just my thoughts. I've got no answers for solving either of these hurdles to improving my Kohaku collection.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by waddy View Post
    I purposely stated in my first post that I have often seen it in Japanese collector's ponds so of course it exists in Japan. In earlier times when Japan was awash with Koi dealers in the big cities I also saw it there.

    I also made it clear I have observed many harvests and stood watching right by the net as they are lifted out and taken to the transport tanks. Be assured neither of the conditions are present.

    I do not understand why you say they are 'less likely to show signs when coming out of the mud' - if they went in with either of the two conditions than they would come out with them. The mud pond would not 'remove' them.

    Again, the same question remains?
    OK, you have me confused now Peter. Above you state that you have often seen it in collectors pond and of course it exists in Japan. Yet in post #60 you state:

    Finally, and sorry to be a bore, but why do I NEVER see either of these conditions when I visit Japan to buy Koi?


    As for not understanding my statement regarding less likely to show signs coming out of the mud, I have heard you, on many occasions recommend that koi with Hikui be placed back into the mud and that it will help to heal or at least temporarily eliminate Hikui. So I do not understand your confusion as to my statement.

    While it is apparent now that you are simply taking shots at others comments, I will ask again for your thoughts on the subject (instead of simply statements made without substance to back them up). I am sure everyone would like to hear your fact based answers to the perplexities of Hikui and Shimi. This has been a very good thread for people to get a grasp on the complexities of these subjects. Let's not turn it into another pissing match please.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. schildkoi@aol.com
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  5. #75
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    I had 2 male Kohaku's who were true brothers. One had persimmon beni, very clean shiroji, and never any sign of a shimmies. The other had a pink/red beni, "crisp" white shiroji, and 2 smallish shimmies that I never messed with with only 1 shimmie remaining at present. Same pond, food, etc... for three years. Our Gh runs 240-280 ppm which is definitely on the hard side. Their water is never green, and they only have partial shade.

    The funny thing is that the one with shimmies actually got a season in the mud several years ago. He went in with shimmies and came out unchanged. No magic "shimmie eraser", but they didn't expand either.

    I've never personally had one with hikkui so I can only relate what I've witnessed with friends who have. 4 or 5 years ago 2 with hikkui went into the same mudpond along with others without. One had been treated with salt/billion and the other had not. When the pond was pulled froughly 6 mo later the one treated with salt/billion showed no signs of further hikkui but obviously still had the damage to the hi plate. The one that went in untreated showed no change at all. The hikkui neither advanced nor declined. It just looked the same as before.
    This particular mudpond has a silty sand component to it along with red clay and the thought that this might have a different impact on the Koi was on everyone's mind. The general results of the Kohaku, Sanke, and Showa in the pond were excellent with the hikkui being the only disappointment.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    I had 2 male Kohaku's who were true brothers. One had persimmon beni, very clean shiroji, and never any sign of a shimmies. The other had a pink/red beni, "crisp" white shiroji, and 2 smallish shimmies that I never messed with with only 1 shimmie remaining at present. Same pond, food, etc... for three years. Our Gh runs 240-280 ppm which is definitely on the hard side. Their water is never green, and they only have partial shade.

    The funny thing is that the one with shimmies actually got a season in the mud several years ago. He went in with shimmies and came out unchanged. No magic "shimmie eraser", but they didn't expand either.

    I've never personally had one with hikkui so I can only relate what I've witnessed with friends who have. 4 or 5 years ago 2 with hikkui went into the same mudpond along with others without. One had been treated with salt/billion and the other had not. When the pond was pulled froughly 6 mo later the one treated with salt/billion showed no signs of further hikkui but obviously still had the damage to the hi plate. The one that went in untreated showed no change at all. The hikkui neither advanced nor declined. It just looked the same as before.
    This particular mudpond has a silty sand component to it along with red clay and the thought that this might have a different impact on the Koi was on everyone's mind. The general results of the Kohaku, Sanke, and Showa in the pond were excellent with the hikkui being the only disappointment.
    Differing types of clay can have different effects. As an example, the red OKlahoma clat is highly soluable and thus with any disturbance the water becomes blood red. This block sunlight and thus has a differnt affect than the blue grey clays as an example which are less soluable and even when disturb allow for filtered light at depths. Would these then have different affects on Hikui? I "think" so. I know when the Downs' relined their red clay mud pond with blue/grey clay that they saw improvements in skin and color and a few put in with Hikui emerge in better shape....only to go back down hill later (as I recall). Ancedotal of course.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. schildkoi@aol.com
    CKHPA

  7. #77
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Right Steve.
    Downs pond and Jesus' pond are my "Okie" points of reference with Downs being re-lined with the blue/gray clay and Jesus' being native silt/sand/red clay. Both have produced great results in their own way (and in a few weeks Chuck and Kimberli's is up for a drain and pull)

  8. #78
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    For folks who get lost in the science jargon....

    Chemical Oxygen Demand is an approach for measuring the organics in water. To be organic, the substance has carbon as a component. When an organic is oxidized, the carbon eventually becomes CO2. So, there is a test protocol that allows a measurement of the level of organics in water by seeing how much of an oxidizer is required to convert the carbon to CO2.

    The point is that high COD means there is a high level of organics. As we all have learned, getting organics out of the water is a good thing. Water changes and foam fractionating are two techniques. Dumping waste from settlement chambers can be seen as either getting the organics out, or getting rid of a source of organics. Aeration and otherwise maintaining maximum dissolved oxygen levels contribute positively by hastening the natural oxidation.

    Some folks like to test and monitor everything. For them, a COD test kit would be a wonderful present to give on some special occasion. They can have many happy hours of playing 'mad chemist in the garden'. For those who never get around to doing the testing they meant to do some day, the key thing to my mind is that getting rid of organics in the water column is important. The more you can do, the better your fish will develop. This is what maintaining the water is all about.

    ...And, yes, in theory one could go overboard in eliminating organics; but I don't see that as worth worrying over unless the person is one of those who relies on dosing potassium permanganate every week.
    Thank you Mike. I was going to really concentrate on it this morning and try to understand... but you saved me a lot of googling and reading. Some ponders here in the US, including myself, use ORP meters to measure the oxidation potential, which sounds like an alternative way to the same goal. While specific ORP numbers by themselves don't mean much, it is a good way to keep tabs on organic trends in a pond.

  9. #79
    Oyagoi
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    Steve posted a photo on post #62

    is that like a shimi but in the red color?

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    Steve posted a photo on post #62

    is that like a shimi but in the red color?
    Here's that picture agai alog with a cropped down version of the hi res.

    Not a shimi but uneven beni development.....I think
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Genetic Predisposition to Shimis in Kohaku-100_9693-cropped.jpg  
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. schildkoi@aol.com
    CKHPA

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