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Thread: Breeders and Shimi/Hakui

  1. #1
    Jumbo 111whalen's Avatar
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    Breeders and Shimi/Hakui

    All right, those of you who are "in the know":which breeders have you had more luck avoiding Hakui and Shimi? I personally have had good luck with Dainichi. It is the buying season, and I would love to know who builds fish with less of these problems.

  2. #2
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 111whalen View Post
    All right, those of you who are "in the know":which breeders have you had more luck avoiding Hakui and Shimi? I personally have had good luck with Dainichi. It is the buying season, and I would love to know who builds fish with less of these problems.
    Hi Markie

    I personally have had great luck with, Marudo & Isa... No Hikui no Shimi and these are our big girls...

    Bad luck with Ogata Sanke for Hikui, Torazo kohaku for Shimi

  3. #3
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy M. View Post
    Hi Markie

    I personally have had great luck with, Marudo & Isa... No Hikui no Shimi and these are our big girls...

    Bad luck with Ogata Sanke for Hikui, Torazo kohaku for Shimi
    well going back to Steve C. thread i still want to go with water or something about it or ???

    cause with Nancy's post i have had opposite with one of them

  4. #4
    Guest Nancy M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    well going back to Steve C. thread i still want to go with water or something about it or ???

    cause with Nancy's post i have had opposite with one of them
    I think we may need to include the grade of koi which was purchased. I am not by any means saying that I have purchased better quality koi.

    But if we say that person A bought a 2 year old Marudo Kohaku for $1000 and person B buys a 2 year old Marudo Kohaku for $5000, do we assume that person B has a better quality koi? or did said person get screwed and over payed?

    Also we need to factor in the locations of said fish, if one of the fish is in California and one is in Chicago, we need to take into consideration the water hardness, PH etc... Living conditions, weather.. So many factors involved knowledge, pond, husbandry skills... I think their are many varitables, and I still think genetics plays a part in both Hikui & Shimi's.

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    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    well going back to Steve C. thread i still want to go with water or something about it or ???

    cause with Nancy's post i have had opposite with one of them
    Not that unusual with such a small sample of fish.

    Steve's observation canceled out Nancy's observation.

    Somebody else's experience may cancel Mark's good luck with Dainichi.


  6. #6
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancy M. View Post
    I think we may need to include the grade of koi which was purchased. I am not by any means saying that I have purchased better quality koi.

    But if we say that person A bought a 2 year old Marudo Kohaku for $1000 and person B buys a 2 year old Marudo Kohaku for $5000, do we assume that person B has a better quality koi? or did said person get screwed and over payed?

    Also we need to factor in the locations of said fish, if one of the fish is in California and one is in Chicago, we need to take into consideration the water hardness, PH etc... Living conditions, weather.. So many factors involved knowledge, pond, husbandry skills... I think their are many varitables, and I still think genetics plays a part in both Hikui & Shimi's.
    well i would defintely be the person A but just to add to discussion.these and any breeder how many different parent sets do they have?

    so take marudo as example how many different kohaku parents do they have (devin ? ).now chance could be that the $1,000 and the $5,000 koi could be siblings.now i understand what makes price differences but now genetically speaking are the same SO brings the question as stated by Nancy -

    we need to take into consideration the water hardness, PH etc... Living conditions, weather.. So many factors involved knowledge, pond, husbandry skills...


    so yes i feel genetics play a roll BUT how come different hobbyist can have different outcomes.
    so steps to consider -

    first breeder cause pond mutts never get better in any water condition

    second is combination of above and will repeat quote again
    we need to take into consideration the water hardness, PH etc... Living conditions, weather.. So many factors involved knowledge, pond, husbandry skills...
    Paul Korf

    member of:
    Midwest Pond and Koi Society
    Louisville Koi club
    IKONA

  7. #7
    Oyagoi
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    also more thoughts as i was backwashing filters,see also waddy made fun of this on other thread,but will still give my thought and as questions in the thought.

    Japan breeders do some not breed kohaku cause they have trouble with shimi and stick to the black base(showa,shiro) cause it is what does best in their water.even if the kohaku came from the great breeder XYZ that never has a shimi.so there is my question do some breeders have their water tell them what varieties they will be raising cause of good results. cause not much demand for breeding a variety that does not do well in their water conditions.
    So if Nancy does well with one breeder is there something about her water that compares better to marudo and something about my water where a marudo does not do well?

    so like a breeder in japan that picks a variety due to water should i be thinking the same way?stay away from kohaku and go with showa /shiro, or pick a breeder that excells in showa and shiro with great sumi that also breeds kohaku pretty good cause it may match my water conditions better?

    just throwing thoughts out there

    (sure i know waddy ripped on this thought on otherthread about different breeder for each hobbyist BUT i think there needs to be some thought put to this)

  8. #8
    Honmei
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    Keep in mind that each breeder could be spawning multiple pairings...top that off that there may be multiple males per female and you can get entirely different genetics (many in fact) from the same breeder. Surface style shimis are not a bog concern for me since those are easily removed. The deeper ones are my bigger concern. Torazo comes to mind in my experience, but again, that was in hard water, twice, once in OKC and another in Dallas....Oh, Gee, the Dallas pond was clean and new....go figure!
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  9. #9
    Jumbo 111whalen's Avatar
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    It's clear that there are many factors in these two problems. However, if you belileve that there is a genetic component then it makes sense that certain breeders are breeding fish with fewer Hakuis and shimis. Right? So, which fish in your pond(s) seem to do better? If we include all the other factors there is no answer. How about American breeders? Are they suffering Hakui?

  10. #10
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by 111whalen View Post
    It's clear that there are many factors in these two problems. However, if you belileve that there is a genetic component then it makes sense that certain breeders are breeding fish with fewer Hakuis and shimis. Right? So, which fish in your pond(s) seem to do better? If we include all the other factors there is no answer. How about American breeders? Are they suffering Hakui?
    Hi Mark,
    I have three Kohaku, 1 from Hammock from INC/Marudo parents, one from Purdin (parents unknown), and 1 from Yagenji. None have Hikui. The Yangenji has one small shimi along the crease of the dorsal that unless you know that it is threre, you wouldn't even notice. Yagenji water is soft, Hammock, hard and Purdin in between. The Purdin and Hammock koi have both been raised by me in very soft water (kh 30 ppm, buffered with Oyster shell). The Yagenji has seen hard (200+ ppm) and soft water under my care. Additionally, the Yagenji, and a INC koi had surface shimis that went away when moved to softer water. The two Torazo koi I previously owned both developed shimis in the hard water of OKC and Dallas. Two Hasagawa koi I had in Dallas both developed surface shimsi in the hard waters of Dallas.

    Hope this helps.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

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