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Thread: Update; Koi Keeping in 2011

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    Update; Koi Keeping in 2011

    Well, I see that the Shimmie thread has been closed ( good to see it is one that I'm not responsible for! LOLs)

    I wanted to add a bit of perspective to that conversation beyond Steve's spot on point regarding genetics and environment and definitely beyond Waddy's 'stick figure' view of what koi and water conditions are---

    Back in 1985, koi information was 'cutting edge' when measured against the general knowledge base of koi in the west. Indeed, no filters, koi as " BIG GOLDFISH" and the belief that koi could be frozen in a block of ice and thawed out to live in the summer months was the norm!

    Back when, Nishikigoi International was ground zero for cutting edge information, we mocked things like baking soda and shimmies and KHV. Indeed, if you recall it was Peter Waddington that lead most of those charges and we all got sucked up into the childlike vision Peter shared with us all.
    KHV was never in Japan, for instance, and it was costia that caused mass mortality at Inflitration gained the support of many of the serious koi kichi at the time. Even I got branded with the name " the four horse men" even though I clearly drew a line in the sand and a distinction between costia and other parasites being a more common danger and the fact that viruses such as sleeping sickness and SVC as well as a gill fulmenting ( in Russia) were already identifed so a new virus was possible. Little did I know that waddy knew of the virus and was leading guys like Nigel, Lansing, Steve, Winkler, Blackburn, aremia, killas, Blischok, Dr Sal and a host of others down the path with a story about super resistant costia. But a few Brits had already seen the carnage up close and personal and slowly they tugged on the Yankee's sleeves and made them aware that they had been -- Had! Peter had had at least two shipments of KHV fish and was hiding it from our inner circle ( remember Peter is about Peter and the rest are players on his stage). Fish were replaced without request and that is just NOT Peter ( as you can see from his reaction to my sold koi and his unwillingness to work with me). Finally a very well known British judge and first rate koi man, filled us in on the details and one by one we began moving away from the defense of the " I am a fibber".

    But I wanted to get to the point of this post----

    we/I also defended Peter's view of baking soda until one day it simply became clear that NOTHING in a koi pond exists as a single issue. And villifying a simple compound was not the answer.
    The koi pond is made up of systems and dynamics. And in the case of baking soda, it was not the baking soda or even the moment of a pond pH crash that was the issue/villan, it was the pond itself and it's stocking level that was the key. And in the same spirit, shimmies are not about a 'dirty filter' ( again Peter's simple mind making a simple observation. Unfortunately in a complicated puzzle) It is the problem that relates back to the need for baking soda! And the dulling of skin.
    In a CLOSED system we require balance. And in fact a very mature filter ( not biofouled! but mature) allows for a better balance is realized! BUT this assumes three things;
    1) that the pond is large enough to house adult koi and that the koi are in ratio to the voulme AND the turn over rate.

    2) that a realistic maintenance shedule is in place and that the base line readings ( especially NitrAte ) is kept.

    3) koi are not then over fed.

    And I'll add this-- we can learn A LOT from watching how the Japanese ' do it'. But taking their practices LITERIALLY and copying the actions they take in an isolated example is well--- stupid. The Japanese tear down their filters because the fish are OUTSIDE 7-8 months a year! It has NOTHING to do with keeping fish 365 days a year in the same system. And in the case where biofouling is a problem, the filters need to be sprayed off. This is a balancing act of keeping bioactivities roaring but not over grown and that is another subject.

    Shimmies are in all the areas I posted earlier on that thread, first and foremost about genetic expression ( either as CODE or as a REACTION) . And environmental reaction/ irritation comes in many forms. But what the idiot savant misses is the big picture. NitrAte is a kind of canary in the coal mine for water deterioration.In itself, there is no immediate killing effect. But like a dropping pH, an algae or bacteria bloom ( cloudy water) , nitrAte tells us that the closed system is crashing in 'slow motion'. the reaction of koi living in high pollution for a short time or a low pollution for a LONG TIME is loss of luster, beni degrading and shimmies. But the shimmies are more likely based on breeding and genetics in the level and degree of that reaction.
    SO I now, in 2011, qualify my comments about baking soda. Not as evil or dulling koi skin based on it's chemistry composition. But rather as an unfortunate admission that the closed system is the problem and the three points I mentioned need to be addressed.
    It was Peter who told Steve that bent fish were due to directional swimming and TPRs! And my poor bud bought that one hook line and sinker. Just as I bought the baking soda bit so many years ago now and the 'old gang' bought into the costia KHV story so many years ago now.
    I'd suggest we stop listening to the observations of an idiot savant of 1987 and all move into 2011. I mean I'm not against a dinner and retirement party for the old fella, but let's not get lead down the path any more with these authoratively presented, albeit silly, observations. I mean HE obviously believes some of this nonsense and we could play along but what does that accomplish other than making us all look foolish in the end.
    Respect the frame work laid down by Japanese breeders and ZNA in the 70s, 80s and 90s but challenge yourselves to understand the thinking of the 2000s and the idea of " systems and dynamcs" and not just a number or an observation.

    JR

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Well, I see that the Shimmie thread has been closed ( good to see it is one that I'm not responsible for! LOLs)

    I wanted to add a bit of perspective to that conversation beyond Steve's spot on point regarding genetics and environment and definitely beyond Waddy's 'stick figure' view of what koi and water conditions are---

    Back in 1985, koi information was 'cutting edge' when measured against the general knowledge base of koi in the west. Indeed, no filters, koi as " BIG GOLDFISH" and the belief that koi could be frozen in a block of ice and thawed out to live in the summer months was the norm!

    Back when, Nishikigoi International was ground zero for cutting edge information, we mocked things like baking soda and shimmies and KHV. Indeed, if you recall it was Peter Waddington that lead most of those charges and we all got sucked up into the childlike vision Peter shared with us all.
    KHV was never in Japan, for instance, and it was costia that caused mass mortality at Inflitration gained the support of many of the serious koi kichi at the time. Even I got branded with the name " the four horse men" even though I clearly drew a line in the sand and a distinction between costia and other parasites being a more common danger and the fact that viruses such as sleeping sickness and SVC as well as a gill fulmenting ( in Russia) were already identifed so a new virus was possible. Little did I know that waddy knew of the virus and was leading guys like Nigel, Lansing, Steve, Winkler, Blackburn, aremia, killas, Blischok, Dr Sal and a host of others down the path with a story about super resistant costia. But a few Brits had already seen the carnage up close and personal and slowly they tugged on the Yankee's sleeves and made them aware that they had been -- Had! Peter had had at least two shipments of KHV fish and was hiding it from our inner circle ( remember Peter is about Peter and the rest are players on his stage). Fish were replaced without request and that is just NOT Peter ( as you can see from his reaction to my sold koi and his unwillingness to work with me). Finally a very well known British judge and first rate koi man, filled us in on the details and one by one we began moving away from the defense of the " I am a fibber".

    But I wanted to get to the point of this post----

    we/I also defended Peter's view of baking soda until one day it simply became clear that NOTHING in a koi pond exists as a single issue. And villifying a simple compound was not the answer.
    The koi pond is made up of systems and dynamics. And in the case of baking soda, it was not the baking soda or even the moment of a pond pH crash that was the issue/villan, it was the pond itself and it's stocking level that was the key. And in the same spirit, shimmies are not about a 'dirty filter' ( again Peter's simple mind making a simple observation. Unfortunately in a complicated puzzle) It is the problem that relates back to the need for baking soda! And the dulling of skin.
    In a CLOSED system we require balance. And in fact a very mature filter ( not biofouled! but mature) allows for a better balance is realized! BUT this assumes three things;
    1) that the pond is large enough to house adult koi and that the koi are in ratio to the voulme AND the turn over rate.

    2) that a realistic maintenance shedule is in place and that the base line readings ( especially NitrAte ) is kept.

    3) koi are not then over fed.

    And I'll add this-- we can learn A LOT from watching how the Japanese ' do it'. But taking their practices LITERIALLY and coping the actions they take in an isolated example is well--- stupid. The Japanese tear down their filters because the fish are OUTSIDE 7-8 months a year! It has NOTHING to do with keeping fish 365 days a year in the same system. And in the case where biofouling is a problem, the filters need to be sprayed off. This is a balancing act of keeping bioactivities roaring but not over grown and that is another subject.

    Shimmies are in all the areas I posted earlier on that thread, first and foremost about genetic expression ( either as CODE or as a REACTION) . And environmental reaction/ irritation comes in many forms. But what the idiot savant misses is the big picture. NitrAte is a kind of canary in the coal mine for water deterioration.In itself, there is no immediate killing effect. But like a dropping pH, an algae or bacteria bloom ( cloudy water) , nitrAte tells us that the closed system is crashing in 'slow motion'. the reaction of koi living in high pollution for a short time or a low pollution for a LONG TIME is loss of luster, beni degrading and shimmies. But the shimmies are more likely based on breeding and genetics in the level and degree of that reaction.
    SO I now, in 2011, qualify my comments about baking soda. Not as evil or dulling koi skin based on it's chemistry composition. But rather as an unfortunate admission that the closed system is the problem and the three points I mentioned need to be addressed.
    It was Peter who told Steve that bent fish were due to directional swimming and TPRs! And my poor bud bought that one hook line and sinker. Just as I bought the baking soda bit so many years ago now and the 'old gang' bought into the costia KHV story so many years ago now.
    I'd suggest we stop listening to the observations of an idiot savant of 1987 and all move into 2011. I mean I'm not against a dinner and retirement party for the old fella, but let's not get lead down the path any more with these authoratively presented, albeit silly, observations. I mean HE obviously beleives some of this nonsense and we could play along but what does that accomplish but making us all look foolish in the end.
    Respect the frame work laid down by Japanese breeders and ZNA in the 70s, 80s and 90s but challenge yourselves to understand the thinking of the 2000s and the idea of " systems and dynamcs" and not just a number or an observation.

    JR
    Let me add a few points here, not to take away from the fine points made concerning water deterioration already made. The "dulling" of the skin (loss of luster) said to be contributed to by Baking Soda is kind one of those "if A, then B" scenarios without regard to C, D, E, F etc. It is also said that higher Ph water dulls the skin while lower Ph of 7 to 7.4 ish helps with Luster. If Baking Soda is continually added to maintain KH, what happens to PH? Typically it will then turn higher than 8...more typically in the 8.3 to 8.4 range. Thus, is it the BS or the higher PH that is the actual cause of said dulling of the skin?

    The Japanese use oyster shell for this purpose. The oysyter shell disolves at a variable rate base upon the Ph. Thus, depending on the amount of shell and flow of water over/through such, the PH can be maintained (along with Kh at a given level....preferable in the 7 to 7.5 range) and thus the impoved luster (or lack of deterioration of such...or so the theory goes).

    In addition, BS was said to contribute to beni loss. Not sure of all of the affecting parameters, such as depth of beni and quality/type of such, but another common link beyond those is "stress". Stress can come in many forms but one cause is the quick fluctuations in water chemistry. BS can cause an immediate change in PH..and large ones at that. I commonly refer to this as "bouncing" the water chemistry....again, not a good thing and very stressful.

    As for the bent fish syndrom? Time for the banana koi pic Jim. It was Toshio Sakai who first made that observation and deduction on koi in a rather small, circular pond with one way directional currents. I still believe that there "may" be some validity to that. My personal solution is to have multiple circular currents in opposite directions working in a gear like fashion....no problems then (whether the original observation/conclusion was correct or not).

    As for the super resistant Costia? Costia has been know to be prevelent in KHV cases as well. Back in those days testing for KHV was limited at best and I can actually see Peter's position back then. Whether accurate or not at the time will remain an unknown and yes, I have had the indepth talks with The BKKS judge you speak of (AC), both privately and in heated debates (in my home) with Peter. You also forget the JH incident some years later? What we do know is that the first known cases of KHV in the US originated from koi imported from elswhere (not Japan). I believe that you (JR) were actually part of that investigation (longwood gardens incident)? I could be Naive' but I believe that Peter believed the Costia claims at the time (whether KHV was actually involved or not).

    Shall we talk Hikui?
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    On your first point of one observation leading to a pregression of conclusions-- I agree 100% in that the puzzle need to put together a piece at a time. But the big picture always trumps the pieces.
    Shintaro's pH is often 8.2 as an example. But his water is supreme and his genetics is Sakai's.
    Baking soda can not 'cause' dull skin. Nor can 8.3 pH alone. It takes 'conditions' that REQUIRE the use of baking soda that encourage shimmies and dull skin to cause these things.
    Softer water is very comforting to koi' skin, no doubt. And hard water will high TDS can be harsh and irritating to koi's skin. But it is the factors in the closed system that cause high nitrAte, low pH, high TDS, low ORP and high bacteria count that cause genetic code to respond and skin ( and slime coat) to change.
    The koi's skin ( epidemis/upper dermis) is so sensitive to environment that it can send alarm phermones out into the water to be picked up by the koi's sensory organs when the slime layer is thinning or even breached.


    As for Toshio Sakai suggesting that fish swimming in a round pond cause bent koi, That's crazy talk boy! Have you unbent your banana koi yet? LOLs
    You have the players right in the costia debate but not the time line. Ask the Brit you mentioned as he was on one of the trips ( with all of us) when the bad batch was being replaced and already there were Japanese articles in print.
    I'll also tell you that Biotoc ( I think I saw it in 1993-94 for the first time) was created to stop transmission LONG before the deaths started at Infiltration. Peter knew all this as much as I and the judge came to know this a few years later. And another customer sued and was compensated quietly.


    Now I'm sympathetic with the small businessman who found they had KHV in that to mention it could close the business over night. There is a point of damage control, but to throw the most loyal of the customer base in from the firing guns is not a clasy thing to do.
    No need to defend our egos here Steve- or spin it to save face-- it's just a journey and we can't know it all at the outstart. It's ok to be conned by Peter and take it in hook line and sinker- after all , he is a master.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    On your first point of one observation leading to a pregression of conclusions-- I agree 100% in that the puzzle need to put together a piece at a time. But the big picture always trumps the pieces.
    Shintaro's pH is often 8.2 as an example. But his water is supreme and his genetics is Sakai's.
    Baking soda can not 'cause' dull skin. Nor can 8.3 pH alone. It takes 'conditions' that REQUIRE the use of baking soda that encourage shimmies and dull skin to cause these things.
    Softer water is very comforting to koi' skin, no doubt. And hard water will high TDS can be harsh and irritating to koi's skin. But it is the factors in the closed system that cause high nitrAte, low pH, high TDS, low ORP and high bacteria count that cause genetic code to respond and skin ( and slime coat) to change.
    The koi's skin ( epidemis/upper dermis) is so sensitive to environment that it can send alarm phermones out into the water to be picked up by the koi's sensory organs when the slime layer is thinning or even breached.


    As for Toshio Sakai suggesting that fish swimming in a round pond cause bent koi, That's crazy talk boy! Have you unbent your banana koi yet? LOLs
    You have the players right in the costia debate but not the time line. Ask the Brit you mentioned as he was on one of the trips ( with all of us) when the bad batch was being replaced and already there were Japanese articles in print.
    I'll also tell you that Biotoc ( I think I saw it in 1993-94 for the first time) was created to stop transmission LONG before the deaths started at Infiltration. Peter knew all this as much as I and the judge came to know this a few years later. And another customer sued and was compensated quietly.


    Now I'm sympathetic with the small businessman who found they had KHV in that to mention it could close the business over night. There is a point of damage control, but to throw the most loyal of the customer base in from the firing guns is not a clasy thing to do.
    No need to defend our egos here Steve- or spin it to save face-- it's just a journey and we can't know it all at the outstart. It's ok to be conned by Peter and take it in hook line and sinker- after all , he is a master.
    No need for me to spin anything to save face JR. Afterall, I was not one of the four horsemen.

    On the biotoc, was that not developed and first used for the bad strain or aeromonous going around in the early to mid 90s? Then it was tried (or maybe Vikon?) to stop transmittal of KHV at shows in the mid 2000s (failing miserably if memory serves)?

    My Banana Koi found a new home when we moved away from Dallas (but I did correct the bend beforehand.

    As for the time line? I may very well be off, who knows.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  5. #5
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    Oh'Really?

    Just like to point out that you've put the wrong title to this thread.

    A reminder, your thread is titled 'Update - Koi keeping in 2011'.

    Have you been reading the tea leaves again?

    Over here it's still 2010.

    I've read the texts twice and discover it's got nothing to do with Koi keeping at all.

    How about calling it what you mean to call it, why hide behind the camouflage.

    From what I've read it should be titled -

    'HERE'S A FEW MORE RANDOM, OUTRAGEOUS LIES I JUST INVENTED LAST NIGHT REGARDING PETER WADDINGTON'

    There that's better and I'm sure it will get more hits!

    By the way, do you still keep Koi?

    .................................................. ...........................................

    Wading through your garbage, I confess only one item is factual - albeit grossly distorted and it does show me how little you really do know.

    Now you, being an amateur, let's be generous and say over the past 25 years, you have spent two full days a week with Koi - again I am being generous. This computes to around 2,600 days and let's generously estimate that 60 of these days were spent in Japan.

    I'll forget the first 5 years when I was an amateur and take it from '77 when I became a Koi dealer.

    That's 365 days a year for 33 years or 12,045 days of which 2,555 were spent in Japan.

    This next bit refers to the one statement on your attack that has some vestige of truth. I would have dismissed it like the others so this part is not intended for you but it is vital and extremely accurate advice for any Koi keepers reading this.

    In 1997 I put a new filtration system on Bill Oakley's pond after he'd started visiting Japan with me.

    The pond was deep at eight feet but the almost circular surface area was quite small.

    We had three returns coming from the filter system and ond large submersible pump providing extra current. It flowed in a clockwise direction and it was easily observed that there was a current to the water.

    Dennis Wordsworth visited that pond every Monday to check everything although Bill did the daily maintenance.

    After some six months of running the system I had telephone calls from Bill and reports from Dennis to say some of the Koi were becoming larger on one shoulder than the other and it was all on the same side of the Koi.

    At first I dismissed this but, as fortune had it, Toshio Sakai came over for another visit and we took him round to see some of the collections and ponds containing his Koi.

    70% of Bill's Koi were bred by Toshio.

    We drove to Bill's pond and met Dennis and Bill there.

    I think it took Toshio all of 15 seconds before he threw his hands in the air asked me for a pen and paper.

    He then drew a circle with clockwise arrows and then put an 'X' in the centre of the circle.

    He then drew another circle with anti-clockwise arrows and put a tick in the centre.

    He then drew 12 circles and numbered them from one to twelve.
    He put a clockwise arrow on numbers 1,3,5,7,9 & 11.
    He put anti-clockwise arrows on 2,4,6,8,10 & 12.
    After that he put his thumbs up.

    There was no mistaking what HE was advising.

    I was only the messenger.

    Within days we had reverse-flow returns on that pond and, after six months of running there wasn't one Koi that was anything other than perfect.

    I recorded all of this in Koi2Kichi later and pointed out the dangers of circular - shaped ponds with small surface area and good current. I then advised that reverse-flow returns should be fitted.

    I said it then and I say it now and say it through actual experience!

    Whether you can get your twisted brain around it or not is of no importance to me at all but it may be of importance to those reading who do actually keep Koi.

    Now didn't DinH and JNorth warn you about continuing your pale attempts at venom?

    As to how Childish can continue a thread that is not a thread, that's another matter Oh'Really.

    P.W.

  6. #6
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    That little bit of foolery from PW at the end of the shimi thread was brilliant, devastating. 2011 update ?!

    A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. --William Shakespeare

  7. #7
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    As to how Childish can continue a thread that is not a thread, that's another matter Oh'Really.

    P.W.
    First of all Peter, I'll make the assumption that you were not (once again) stooping to name calling and simply made a bad typo in referencing me? Next, regardless of the initial post as a whole, I commented on specifics, known to me and to what I believe is of value to the readers, including defence of the banana koi (and thus you).

    One thing that really is upsetting is your reference between profesionals and amateurs and the insinuation that if one is a professional that they somehow automatically know more that an amateur, on all subjects. Clearly, JR's education and training in Pre Vet puts him light years ahead of you in these associated areas even if he is an amateur and you are a professional. Likewise, my studies in architecture and engineerting puts myself ahead of you in this area. You may know that something is or is not based on experience but you often times have no idea as to why it is such or if it can be imroved upon. Simply look at how many differing filter designs you have supported over the years. Knowledge is first and foremost, experience then follows. Combining/embracing both is the best of both worlds. It is not a matter of simply saying something is so based upon observations. This often times leads to wrong assumptions based on limited facts. I don't profess to know all of the answers but I typically base my opinions not only on observations but the underlining science and or engineering. I'll debate points with you all day if you wish but don't bother with reasons of because you say so or saw such...regardless of how many times when there is science or engineering that states otherwise.

    I leaned much from you over the years Peter but the most important lesson was my own further research to find out the science and engineering behind the valid opinions......and the reasons why others were not valid. Perhaps you should do likewise...especially before coming after me with silly name calling....Oops, I mean typo.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    That little bit of foolery from PW at the end of the shimi thread was brilliant, devastating. 2011 update ?!

    A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. --William Shakespeare
    'Wot's that then' Rob?

    Of course you are 100% correct in what you say.

    The shimi thread was locked today.

    It started up a few hours later with a sham title - that's all.

    As far as I can see, the shimi thread is still running.

    There are still many who are chuckling with 'the conversation' post - I'm one of them!

    Peter W.

  9. #9
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    Will the BS never end?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
    Will the BS never end?
    nope...probably not.

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