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Thread: "GENETICS" pattern, size all attributes JR!!!!!

  1. #11
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    jtp: JR hasn't stepped in, so I'll respond with my thoughts. You'll read a great deal about pattern being random. The selection of oyagoi has virtually nothing to do with one of the fish having a great pattern. However, there are pattern tendencies that show up in the voluminous offspring. As a result, a menkaburi would have to be really good in other respects before being used as a breeder. (Of course, it would have to be very good to have not been culled or sold off as tosai.) To develop the super jumbo Kohaku, there was a bit of reversion toward more solid patterns of 'the olden days', rather than the more refined step patterns. JR has written quite a bit on this topic. One of the goals of today's breeders is having classic step patterns in such large-sized Kohaku. Whether more such patterns are being produced in the total spawns I cannot say, but it does seem that more with step patterns are making their way to the auctions, show rings and dealer websites. There is a breeder who has a focus on producing Tancho. Through selection over the years, the breeder is able to produce a higher percentage of Tancho than the occasional oddity of most pairings. But, even after years of focus, there are still comparatively few in the hundreds of thousands of offspring. So, yes, pattern is random, but not 100%. My thought is that it is probably best to think of pattern as weakly influenced rather than wholly random.
    Mike is correct, with Koi, they do not breed "true" (Kohaku x Kohaku produces only Kohaku offaspring like the parents).

    Breeder "selection" plays an important part in producing a higher percentage of quality offspring.

    Will the breeding of Koi reach the same level as goldfish (Red-cap Oranda x Red-cap Oranda produces Red-cap Oranda)?


  2. #12
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Mike is correct, with Koi, they do not breed "true" (Kohaku x Kohaku produces only Kohaku offaspring like the parents).

    Breeder "selection" plays an important part in producing a higher percentage of quality offspring.

    Will the breeding of Koi reach the same level as goldfish (Red-cap Oranda x Red-cap Oranda produces Red-cap Oranda)?

    if you look close at picture of your red caps.
    how many are actually red caps.some have red on body,under face and other spots. even closer look at the cap looks like alot have red that extends off of the cap so technically only few will be perfect red caps

  3. #13
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    if you look close at picture of your red caps.
    how many are actually red caps.some have red on body,under face and other spots. even closer look at the cap looks like alot have red that extends off of the cap so technically only few will be perfect red caps
    "Perfect" is not what I was talking about.

    If the Orandas bred like Koi, there would be ALL white, ALL red, poorly marked mottled, etc. Orandas.

    Goldfish do not breed perfect, but they bred more true than Koi.

    Can you imagine breeding Tancho Kohaku Koi x Tancho Kohaku Koi? What do you think you would get?
    Last edited by ricshaw; 12-17-2010 at 11:13 PM. Reason: added Tancho x Tancho

  4. #14
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    "Perfect" is not what I was talking about.

    If the Orandas bred like Koi, there would be ALL white, ALL red, poorly marked mottled, etc. Orandas.

    Goldfish do not breed perfect, but they bred more true than Koi.

    Can you imagine breeding Tancho Kohaku Koi x Tancho Kohaku Koi? What do you think you would get?
    but red cap oranda have been bred to red cap oranda for ALOT more generations then any tancho koi been bred to tancho koi so % is alot higher to have more of a red cap.

    breeding reg red and white oranda do get you anywhere like koi from all red to 50/50 to all white.

    i also see it in my sarrasa comets all red to all white and any % in between

    so really no different in goldfish VS koi

  5. #15
    Jumbo
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    [QUOTE=ricshaw;176615]"Perfect" is not what I was talking about.

    If the Orandas bred like Koi, there would be ALL white, ALL red, poorly marked mottled, etc. Orandas.

    Goldfish do not breed perfect, but they bred more true than Koi.

    Can you imagine breeding Tancho Kohaku Koi x Tancho Kohaku Koi? What do you think you would get?[/QUOTE]

    it's not fixed yet but getting close.... some Tancho parent produced 2000 tancho tosai which is amazingly high rate compare to other sets.

  6. #16
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Can you imagine breeding Tancho Kohaku Koi x Tancho Kohaku Koi? What do you think you would get?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    it's not fixed yet but getting close.... some Tancho parent produced 2000 tancho tosai which is amazingly high rate compare to other sets.
    That is the good news I was not expecting yet!

  7. #17
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Bradly,
    For those of us in America "The Silly Season" ended in the first week of November...
    Up here that's what we call "Elections"
    Our Silly Season consists of complete strangers prentending to be nice, Just before Dec. 25th, so I guess the pretending is much the same.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    I'd love to stay and chat but I have been up since 3am (Silly Season). I am heading for bed. Everyone should start with a basic understanding of alleles, inheritance, genotype and phenotype as basic concepts. Once you have those down, there are a few good genetics textbooks around with sections on penetrance & variable expressivity. It is a good place to start and worth the investment. This will give you a basic understanding of how pied pattern is inherited. But, you do don't stop there, Nishikigoi are quite the genetic mix.

  9. #19
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    jtp: JR hasn't stepped in, so I'll respond with my thoughts. You'll read a great deal about pattern being random. The selection of oyagoi has virtually nothing to do with one of the fish having a great pattern. However, there are pattern tendencies that show up in the voluminous offspring. As a result, a menkaburi would have to be really good in other respects before being used as a breeder. (Of course, it would have to be very good to have not been culled or sold off as tosai.) To develop the super jumbo Kohaku, there was a bit of reversion toward more solid patterns of 'the olden days', rather than the more refined step patterns. JR has written quite a bit on this topic. One of the goals of today's breeders is having classic step patterns in such large-sized Kohaku. Whether more such patterns are being produced in the total spawns I cannot say, but it does seem that more with step patterns are making their way to the auctions, show rings and dealer websites. There is a breeder who has a focus on producing Tancho. Through selection over the years, the breeder is able to produce a higher percentage of Tancho than the occasional oddity of most pairings. But, even after years of focus, there are still comparatively few in the hundreds of thousands of offspring. So, yes, pattern is random, but not 100%. My thought is that it is probably best to think of pattern as weakly influenced rather than wholly random.
    Thanks Mike, you did a great job and leave me little to add. So I'll approach the subject with a little history and hopefully bring out an interesting 'variation' in the idea of JUMBO that might be interesting to our readers----

    Jumboism is be had or gotten out a few ways and each of these ways is very different but all are aimed at bringing out a Jumbo individual -- note, I said individual and NOT strain.

    The 'father of the Jumbo' was probably Sakai of SFF Hiroshima. Interesting enough he has been passed by a few others at this point ( but not by much). The evolution of the Jumbo Hiroshima style was mostly about Husbandry and a slow introduction of larger breeders over twenty years. In fact, Sakai was famous for buying back one of the All Japan champions that he wanted for a breeder due to it's massive body. But his real 'skill' was in heating and feeding tosai to bring larger sellable fish to market and holding back tobie type fish. These tosai were weak fish however and some energy had to be put into 'hardening off' these hot house type fish. In other words, these bigger fish were brought about using forced growth techniques. In this regard, these force fed fish became illusions of size bit were also from spawns where true largest of the large individuals were highly valued and held back. So there is the present 'illusion' of a bigger fish and also a culling process to seek out the truly jumbo fish. In the end, the illusion fish will finish off it's size at a normal adult size compared to the non-hot house fish. But the jumbo fish will be at the high end of the range and possible bigger than the fish that experiences long cold winters. This is a cross over point.
    Pile enough of these individuals into a breeding program and soon you have a jumbo strain. You might sacrifice other attributes however to preserve these fish from the cull based on color and pattern. But if your general grade is high, it is only down to wild pattern that holds you back- and Sakai had the classic three step down well years ago anyway.

    To be continued...... JR

  10. #20
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Thanks Mike, you did a great job and leave me little to add. So I'll approach the subject with a little history and hopefully bring out an interesting 'variation' in the idea of JUMBO that might be interesting to our readers----

    Jumboism is be had or gotten out a few ways and each of these ways is very different but all are aimed at bringing out a Jumbo individual -- note, I said individual and NOT strain.

    The 'father of the Jumbo' was probably Sakai of SFF Hiroshima. Interesting enough he has been passed by a few others at this point ( but not by much). The evolution of the Jumbo Hiroshima style was mostly about Husbandry and a slow introduction of larger breeders over twenty years. In fact, Sakai was famous for buying back one of the All Japan champions that he wanted for a breeder due to it's massive body. But his real 'skill' was in heating and feeding tosai to bring larger sellable fish to market and holding back tobie type fish. These tosai were weak fish however and some energy had to be put into 'hardening off' these hot house type fish. In other words, these bigger fish were brought about using forced growth techniques. In this regard, these force fed fish became illusions of size bit were also from spawns where true largest of the large individuals were highly valued and held back. So there is the present 'illusion' of a bigger fish and also a culling process to seek out the truly jumbo fish. In the end, the illusion fish will finish off it's size at a normal adult size compared to the non-hot house fish. But the jumbo fish will be at the high end of the range and possible bigger than the fish that experiences long cold winters. This is a cross over point.
    Pile enough of these individuals into a breeding program and soon you have a jumbo strain. You might sacrifice other attributes however to preserve these fish from the cull based on color and pattern. But if your general grade is high, it is only down to wild pattern that holds you back- and Sakai had the classic three step down well years ago anyway.

    To be continued...... JR

    Good stuff,,,,,,patiently waiting for more

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