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Thread: "GENETICS" pattern, size all attributes JR!!!!!

  1. #1
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    "GENETICS" pattern, size all attributes JR!!!!!

    I couldn't resist myself after reading Jr's reply to bradleybradley. Why wait til the first of the year?

    Jr this information is facinating. I had the pleasure of sitting through your seminar at the AKCA seminar this year. And would love to hear anything you would be willing to share with us on genetics. Mutations or anything related to this field of koi keeping.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
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    Thanks for the kind and encouraging words, my friend.
    Bradley is my kind of koi keeper/breeder as he has that rare gift of insight. I found it very impressive that he demonstrated the 'theoretical' aspect of koi genetics in a living spawn.

    The very first principle that really needs to be grasped by anyone who is interesting in gaining both a historical and a real world perspective regarding koi genetics is ---

    Once an animal is removed from the wild and isolated as a group of individuals and that group is bred for a few generations IT can NEVER be the same (genetically speaking) as compared to the greater wild population.
    So koi's creation began long before they were the colored carp we know today. They first were collected from China and Europe, brought to a certain area of Japan (several areas actually) and isolated from the main races of common carp found in China and Europe.
    Now it might seem as though this would not matter--- but it does -- big time, as the isolated race is now 75 generations later and these fish are a very great distance from the wild race or even the domestic races of Europe (Doitsu).
    One of the very important events of isolation and decline was experienced when years ago now, most of the stock of Niigata was lost to a great drought and only those held in a few bodies of water survived. A second event, the war, did a similar thing. So the genetic pool has been isolated, reduced and inbreeding has been intense at some points in time.
    There have been many outcrosses before and after the war but in a very coordinated and limited way (mostly for vigor due to the negatives associated with inbreeding).

    This is the gene pool of nishikigoi. It is has been systematically expanded by a community of breeders who cooperated and also competed with one another. JR


  3. #3
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Jr,
    I have a question on pattern. Let's say kohaku for example. If you have an oyagoi with a pattern that is just to die for. What are the chances that this pattern or similar patterns to it, will be produced through a spawn? Is pattern purely random? Or is pattern bred for?

  4. #4
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
    Why wait til the first of the year?
    Let's all get past the silly season first.

  5. #5
    Fry
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    My winter reading....


    Happy Holidays everyone.

  6. #6
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Genetic engineering.....gene regulation in color development....? it's called fertilize more eggs, take out the best and cull the rest science.

  7. #7
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Let's all get past the silly season first.
    If i remember right from your talk at the Ikona meeting you are having pretty good weather right now. The rest of us need something to do because we cant go outside.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    jtp: JR hasn't stepped in, so I'll respond with my thoughts. You'll read a great deal about pattern being random. The selection of oyagoi has virtually nothing to do with one of the fish having a great pattern. However, there are pattern tendencies that show up in the voluminous offspring. As a result, a menkaburi would have to be really good in other respects before being used as a breeder. (Of course, it would have to be very good to have not been culled or sold off as tosai.) To develop the super jumbo Kohaku, there was a bit of reversion toward more solid patterns of 'the olden days', rather than the more refined step patterns. JR has written quite a bit on this topic. One of the goals of today's breeders is having classic step patterns in such large-sized Kohaku. Whether more such patterns are being produced in the total spawns I cannot say, but it does seem that more with step patterns are making their way to the auctions, show rings and dealer websites. There is a breeder who has a focus on producing Tancho. Through selection over the years, the breeder is able to produce a higher percentage of Tancho than the occasional oddity of most pairings. But, even after years of focus, there are still comparatively few in the hundreds of thousands of offspring. So, yes, pattern is random, but not 100%. My thought is that it is probably best to think of pattern as weakly influenced rather than wholly random.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Let's all get past the silly season first.
    Bradly,
    For those of us in America "The Silly Season" ended in the first week of November...
    Up here that's what we call "Elections"

  10. #10
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    jtp: JR hasn't stepped in, so I'll respond with my thoughts. You'll read a great deal about pattern being random. The selection of oyagoi has virtually nothing to do with one of the fish having a great pattern. However, there are pattern tendencies that show up in the voluminous offspring. As a result, a menkaburi would have to be really good in other respects before being used as a breeder. (Of course, it would have to be very good to have not been culled or sold off as tosai.) To develop the super jumbo Kohaku, there was a bit of reversion toward more solid patterns of 'the olden days', rather than the more refined step patterns. JR has written quite a bit on this topic. One of the goals of today's breeders is having classic step patterns in such large-sized Kohaku. Whether more such patterns are being produced in the total spawns I cannot say, but it does seem that more with step patterns are making their way to the auctions, show rings and dealer websites. There is a breeder who has a focus on producing Tancho. Through selection over the years, the breeder is able to produce a higher percentage of Tancho than the occasional oddity of most pairings. But, even after years of focus, there are still comparatively few in the hundreds of thousands of offspring. So, yes, pattern is random, but not 100%. My thought is that it is probably best to think of pattern as weakly influenced rather than wholly random.
    There are only so many ways red spots can be located on a back of a koi. I would guess there is a 1: 500,000 chance that an offspring might resemble its parent stock imo.

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