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Thread: If the Genetics are there they will Come

  1. #1
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    If the Genetics are there they will Come

    Over the last couple of Weeks I've seen the word "Genetics" mentioned serveral times on several Threads. Many times this has been about what size should a Nisai be.

    I've read things such as "If the genetics are there the Koi will catch up even if only 12 inches at Nisai". I'll take it we are talking about the Genes that the certain "Lucky" Koi out of a spawning has for gaining size ? Or are we talking about the Genes that all the baby Koi recieved from the Oyagoi the koi was bred from, saying that "All" the offspring should be carrying the same genetics for a certain size from that same spawning ?

    If we're talking about the latter, this seems flawed .
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  2. #2
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    If you get it you got it. If you didn't you don't.

    I've got a pair from the same spawn swimming around right now. Aka Bekko and Sanke. 20" Aka Bekko with a massive frame. 12" Sanke with a slender frame. I've seen the same differences time and again with Koi grown in precisely the same water with absolutely no differences in feeding or any other health issues.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    HI Troy,
    Good questions! Koi development is kind of like a three legged stool. The three requirements for koi development are:

    Jumbo and Quality Genetics
    Water Quality
    Husbandry including good feeding techniques

    If any one of these are faulty the koi will not develop into a large top quality koi. For example if the genetic lottery does not provide the rare combination of recessive genes necessary to allow for good growth or quality characteristics the best water quality, feeding techniques etc. will not be able to change to genetic potential. Likewise if you take a koi that is blessed with the best genetic potential but keep it in less than the best conditions it will not develop to it's potential.

    The notion that if a koi's parents are jumbo that all the baby koi will be jumbo is false. Most koi breeders will tell you that only maybe 5% of the offspring of jumbo parents have the "ability" to grow into jumbo koi given proper care and water conditions.

    It is fairly easy to "push" young koi to large sizes with warm water over the winter and feeding 12 months but beware that they will not end up larger than their genetic programing allows.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  4. #4
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    Over the last couple of Weeks I've seen the word "Genetics" mentioned serveral times on several Threads. Many times this has been about what size should a Nisai be.

    I've read things such as "If the genetics are there the Koi will catch up even if only 12 inches at Nisai". I'll take it we are talking about the Genes that the certain "Lucky" Koi out of a spawning has for gaining size ? Or are we talking about the Genes that all the baby Koi recieved from the Oyagoi the koi was bred from, saying that "All" the offspring should be carrying the same genetics for a certain size from that same spawning ?

    If we're talking about the latter, this seems flawed .
    In addition to what Ray said (and I fuully agree with), I hopefully can clarify your question by adding some context to the bolded statement.

    I would suggest that the context would be something like that in humans in that growth spurts can occur at varying ages and while some are early bloomers, others are later bloomers but those with the same genetic potential, in like/substantially similar/same water conditions and likewise husbandry regimes will grow to the same length albeit at differing growth rates at different times (catch up).

    This is NOT to say that all koi from the same spawn have the same growth potential
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  5. #5
    Oyagoi Flounder's Avatar
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    The statement was made by a dealer saying that his 12" koi have the capacity to grow to "jumbo" size even though they are 12" nisai. His excuse for this is that the breeder breeds more koi than he has mud ponds and so these are kept in concrete ponds with many many others and grown slower so not to ruin the quality of these koi.

    These are all fed "trout chow" BTW.

  6. #6
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    The statement was made by a dealer saying that his 12" koi have the capacity to grow to "jumbo" size even though they are 12" nisai. His excuse for this is that the breeder breeds more koi than he has mud ponds and so these are kept in concrete ponds with many many others and grown slower so not to ruin the quality of these koi.

    These are all fed "trout chow" BTW.
    One man's idea of "Jumbo" may not be the same as yours or mine.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Flounder;176865]The statement was made by a dealer saying that his 12" koi have the capacity to grow to "jumbo" size even though they are 12" nisai. His excuse for this is that the breeder breeds more koi than he has mud ponds and so these are kept in concrete ponds with many many others and grown slower so not to ruin the quality of these koi.

    I think that the dealer was giving a little BS. But let us get a little more specific and say a fairley good gosanke. If the breeder would think that it would reach Jumbo would keep it over the winter in at least 70f water and by the time it was 12month old it would be at least 15in. The growth from there would be determined by water quality and very much temperature as well as food related. This year thanks to global warming we have had
    record warm temperatures resulting in double the growth of previous years. Genetics do control the final growth but the growth takes a lot longer in colder climates.
    Regards
    Eugene

  8. #8
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    How many times have we heard "Don't buy the Breeder, Buy the Fish". I guess we could also say "Don't buy the Oyagoi, Buy the Fish" ?

  9. #9
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    I've had my eye on a Dainichi Female Showa (15" Nisai). Have no Idea or Info on the Parents Set the Breeders used, but was thinking with my Mud Pond I could get her caught up in a couple years if she holds the Keys (Genetics).

  10. #10
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    How many times have we heard "Don't buy the Breeder, Buy the Fish". I guess we could also say "Don't buy the Oyagoi, Buy the Fish" ?
    The breeder and the genetics are very important... just not a guarantee.

    The breeder and the genetics definitely improve your odds.

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