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Thread: Can we compare filtration systems?

  1. #21
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Deleted. For some reason the post showed up twice

  2. #22
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the discussion. I asked this for myself but also for others who read but don't post. I was trying to keep it generic but here are my plans, FOR NOW.

    With the recent move, I can't afford to build the concrete bottom, sprayed liner, etc. that I wanted to. I haven't seen my fishes' mouths in over a month. I'm having withdrawals and want them in a clear pond. (mud ponds are not clear and I've only seen mouths at feeding time for the last 9 months)

    My soil is nothing but sand so I have no choice but to invest in cinder blocks and a liner, for now. The filtration plumbing will be built so I can eventually cement the floor and add some type of paintable/sprayable liner later. As much as I'd love to do a gunite pond, I'd have to hit the lotto and I don't play.

    So, my plans are for a 15x25' pond with the bottom sloping 6'-8', on the order of Steve J's pond, 2' of it above ground. No waterfall. I'll have to build my filtration for now. I'm trying to work a deal for a 9x12' plastic cone shaped container that I'll cut in 1/2 and use the cone shaped end for a SC for the BD's. The skimmer will go to a large static bed but not a 55 gallon drum. I'm also planning on having a very large moving bed since I have at least 30 cu ft of media laying around and 3 air pumps. A large shower with one tray full of oyster shells will also be incorporated. I have(4) 2'x4' trays.

    IF I can afford sieves, I would replace the static chamber but I don't see that happening this year.

    I "think" I have 11 big girls, 2 still at Purdin, so I'm not going to be overstocked.

    I also plan on making this a semi flow through as my ponds have been in the past. I just have to do some thinking on how I'm going to work this out with the new water I have since it has 6.5 pH, 0 hardness & alkalinity.

    This is off the top of my head. I have not sat down to draw things out yet but I plan to do that in the next week or so. I also need to get started building my bottom drains since it takes a while for me to test them.

    Eventually, I plan on revamping this "hole" to add cinder block chambers to be like the River at Purdin.

    Dick, thank you so much for the compliment. It means a lot coming from you!
    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  3. #23
    Nisai APOLONASGR36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brae View Post
    My "ideal" mechanical filter system would not only seperate but remove solids from the water column proper asap. Lets say down to 40 micron. This would be acccomplished by a rdf.
    Since most of the solids have been removed, this significantly lightens up the load on the biostage of filtration, allowing for a smaller footprint of submerged moving media.This can be followed by static media for fines...and if one should desire energy effiecency this can all be accomplished with gravity flow and air lifts or axial flow pump technology.
    That is the exact system that I am using now Brae on one of my ponds. Since I replaced the SC with a 40 micron RDF I have seen an amazing improvement in water clarity, fish appetite, growth and skin luster. And having to do almost no maintenance is not so bad either.

  4. #24
    Meg
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    Oyagoi Meg's Avatar
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    40 micron RDF
    yes, understood it uses a 40 micron screen but any more information of the mechanics, how is it differ from the sieve?

  5. #25
    eds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg View Post
    40 micron RDF
    yes, understood it uses a 40 micron screen but any more information of the mechanics, how is it differ from the sieve?
    It's a rotating screen that is backwashed automatically when it blocks rather than waiting to be done manually as in a sieve. If you google drum filter you'll see a lot of industrial ones that'll give you the idea.

  6. #26
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kntry View Post
    Thanks for all the discussion. I asked this for myself but also for others who read but don't post. I was trying to keep it generic but here are my plans, FOR NOW.

    With the recent move, I can't afford to build the concrete bottom, sprayed liner, etc. that I wanted to. I haven't seen my fishes' mouths in over a month. I'm having withdrawals and want them in a clear pond. (mud ponds are not clear and I've only seen mouths at feeding time for the last 9 months)

    My soil is nothing but sand so I have no choice but to invest in cinder blocks and a liner, for now. The filtration plumbing will be built so I can eventually cement the floor and add some type of paintable/sprayable liner later. As much as I'd love to do a gunite pond, I'd have to hit the lotto and I don't play.

    So, my plans are for a 15x25' pond with the bottom sloping 6'-8', on the order of Steve J's pond, 2' of it above ground. No waterfall. I'll have to build my filtration for now. I'm trying to work a deal for a 9x12' plastic cone shaped container that I'll cut in 1/2 and use the cone shaped end for a SC for the BD's. The skimmer will go to a large static bed but not a 55 gallon drum. I'm also planning on having a very large moving bed since I have at least 30 cu ft of media laying around and 3 air pumps. A large shower with one tray full of oyster shells will also be incorporated. I have(4) 2'x4' trays.

    IF I can afford sieves, I would replace the static chamber but I don't see that happening this year.

    I "think" I have 11 big girls, 2 still at Purdin, so I'm not going to be overstocked.

    I also plan on making this a semi flow through as my ponds have been in the past. I just have to do some thinking on how I'm going to work this out with the new water I have since it has 6.5 pH, 0 hardness & alkalinity.

    This is off the top of my head. I have not sat down to draw things out yet but I plan to do that in the next week or so. I also need to get started building my bottom drains since it takes a while for me to test them.

    Eventually, I plan on revamping this "hole" to add cinder block chambers to be like the River at Purdin.

    Dick, thank you so much for the compliment. It means a lot coming from you!

    I am in the process of a redo on my pond also. It has been going on for about a year but with a 50 hr a week full time job, a part time real estate job, 2 little girls running around the house and golf it doesnt leave much time to work on the pond. I have heard the "system" speech atleast 20 times in the past year and am very thankful for it.

    I am not familiar with the rotary drum filters but I do know from a little research that they are very expensive.

    Sieves,,,main advantage,,, it seperates solids from the water colum without human intervention. Also a smaller footprint than a settlement chamber. Disadvantages,,limited flow rates and price.

    A properly designed settlement chamber can do the job just as good as a sieve in my opinion. The main thing to be remember here is that bio filtration should be directly after your settlement chamber,, WHY? because in doing so, all of the junk collected in the SC can be converted by the bio chamber immeditely. Thus resulting in lower ambient nutrient level in the pond itself and better overall water quality. Advantages,,,flow rates can be altered to achieve your desired parameters. price, most containers are cheap. Disadvantages, have to be drained by us lazy humans and amount of space they take up.

    For the maintainence reason, I dont like the idea of the static chamber on your skimmer circuit. Unless you are adding some type of blower manifold to clean it. I would also stay away from japanese mat for this reason,,works great but a lot of maintainence involved and if us lazy humans get lazy,,,it can cause water problems. Sure the production filtration is alot easier on maintainence but a lot harder on the wallet. Diy filtration can provide adequate filtration for a pond but just like production units,,,the plan needs to be well thought out so everything works together in perfect harmony

    One more point (which was brought to my attention to late) you mention 15 x 25 as measurements. How are you going to catch your koi in a 15 ft wide pond? Whether it be for a show or a health reason. It would require draining or a sain in order to do so. Which cant be done alone.

    I see many people building the linear flow or river type ponds now. It has been beaten into my head about cylindrical current ponds. 2 bottom drains with 2 tprs and 1 gpr in order to create counter vortexing currents around the bottom drains to help aid in waste removal. You cant tell me that crud can be washed 25 ft from one end of a river flow designed pond to a bottom drain or sump on the other end of the pond quicker than it can be moved the 6ft or so that it could fall from a bottom drain in the cylindrical current pond.

    I like the shower idea but dont forget about the extra power needed to push the water to the elevation required for the shower. If using a settlement chamber as you state. I would want the shower on that circuit for bio for the sc.

    The one thing I wished I had of done was met Steve before I started ordering equipment for the pond. It has cost me more money and time on trying to get everything in line now. Have your filtration design and overall pond design set in stone before the shovel(or trackho) comes out.
    Member of IKONA
    Supporter of Koi Usa/AKCA

  7. #27
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
    I am in the process of a redo on my pond also. It has been going on for about a year but with a 50 hr a week full time job, a part time real estate job, 2 little girls running around the house and golf it doesnt leave much time to work on the pond. I have heard the "system" speech atleast 20 times in the past year and am very thankful for it.

    I am not familiar with the rotary drum filters but I do know from a little research that they are very expensive.

    Sieves,,,main advantage,,, it seperates solids from the water colum without human intervention. Also a smaller footprint than a settlement chamber. Disadvantages,,limited flow rates and price.

    A properly designed settlement chamber can do the job just as good as a sieve in my opinion. The main thing to be remember here is that bio filtration should be directly after your settlement chamber,, WHY? because in doing so, all of the junk collected in the SC can be converted by the bio chamber immeditely. Thus resulting in lower ambient nutrient level in the pond itself and better overall water quality. Advantages,,,flow rates can be altered to achieve your desired parameters. price, most containers are cheap. Disadvantages, have to be drained by us lazy humans and amount of space they take up.

    For the maintainence reason, I dont like the idea of the static chamber on your skimmer circuit. Unless you are adding some type of blower manifold to clean it. I would also stay away from japanese mat for this reason,,works great but a lot of maintainence involved and if us lazy humans get lazy,,,it can cause water problems. Sure the production filtration is alot easier on maintainence but a lot harder on the wallet. Diy filtration can provide adequate filtration for a pond but just like production units,,,the plan needs to be well thought out so everything works together in perfect harmony

    One more point (which was brought to my attention to late) you mention 15 x 25 as measurements. How are you going to catch your koi in a 15 ft wide pond? Whether it be for a show or a health reason. It would require draining or a sain in order to do so. Which cant be done alone.

    I see many people building the linear flow or river type ponds now. It has been beaten into my head about cylindrical current ponds. 2 bottom drains with 2 tprs and 1 gpr in order to create counter vortexing currents around the bottom drains to help aid in waste removal. You cant tell me that crud can be washed 25 ft from one end of a river flow designed pond to a bottom drain or sump on the other end of the pond quicker than it can be moved the 6ft or so that it could fall from a bottom drain in the cylindrical current pond.

    I like the shower idea but dont forget about the extra power needed to push the water to the elevation required for the shower. If using a settlement chamber as you state. I would want the shower on that circuit for bio for the sc.

    The one thing I wished I had of done was met Steve before I started ordering equipment for the pond. It has cost me more money and time on trying to get everything in line now. Have your filtration design and overall pond design set in stone before the shovel(or trackho) comes out.
    I think you need to hear "The System" speach at least 1...no, 10 more times!

    Settlement Chamber vs Sieve = Passive separation vs active separation.

    A settlement chamber or separation chamber only separates/settles based on the bouyancy of the solids while active separation of a sieve does such based on the size of the solid (in relation to the screen size). The bigger the SC, the more the velocity of water will slow. The more the velocity slows, the less force acting on the solids. Also, the bigger the SC, the higher the dwell time which also allows for better separation. For a given flow rate and a givenequal space for each, active separation as a process wins hands down everytime.
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  8. #28
    Daihonmei
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    Question ( not a trap! LOLs) does 'active separation' produce higher fine count and higher DOC levels? JR

  9. #29
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi View Post
    I think you need to hear "The System" speach at least 1...no, 10 more times!

    Settlement Chamber vs Sieve = Passive separation vs active separation.

    A settlement chamber or separation chamber only separates/settles based on the bouyancy of the solids while active separation of a sieve does such based on the size of the solid (in relation to the screen size). The bigger the SC, the more the velocity of water will slow. The more the velocity slows, the less force acting on the solids. Also, the bigger the SC, the higher the dwell time which also allows for better separation. For a given flow rate and a givenequal space for each, active separation as a process wins hands down everytime.

    I was not comparing the 2,,,I was giving advantages and disadvantages of each. Both are used as mechanical filters. And most of the stuff that settles will be collected by the sieve. The seive removes it from the water column for us,,,,and we have to "dump" the SC in order to remove the waste.

    I have never seen a setup with a sieve and a settlement chamber on the same circuit,,,,have you? Would there be any reason for both? It is usually one or the other,,,correct?


    And for the record,,,,if thats all you found wrong out of my entire post. I did pretty darn good, lol

  10. #30
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Question ( not a trap! LOLs) does 'active separation' produce higher fine count and higher DOC levels? JR


    Jr,

    I would think that active seperation would lower the fine count and DOC level. Just for the simple fact that the screen could be finer and instantly removing the solids from the water column.

    THINK NOT KNOW

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