The timeless argument - Longfins

[kntry]

I spoke at my club meeting yesterday and the question came up "Why aren't longfins koi"? My answer was that they are a cross between goldfish and koi which is what I've read on the net.

This morning I read something that Vance wrote saying they are actually Indonesian carp and bred in Japan by Suda.

I know they will never compete against standard fins so that tells me they aren't koi.

So what's the real genetic scoop?

[CarolinaGirl]

Crosses between goldies and koi are sterile, like mules. All the goldie/koi crosses I have ever seen are usually oddly colored, oddly shaped and don't have barbels. I have always read that longfins are a cross between koi and longfin indonesian carp which are apparently closely enough related that the offspring is not sterile.

[RayJordan]

Quote: Originally Posted by kntry I spoke at my club meeting yesterday and the question came up "Why aren't longfins koi"? My answer was that they are a cross between goldfish and koi which is what I've read on the net. This morning I read something that Vance wrote saying they are actually Indonesian carp and bred in Japan by Suda. I know they will never compete against standard fins so that tells me they aren't koi. So what's the real genetic scoop?

i think that Vance has a pretty complete story of the first longfin koi on his website at Tank Hollow Fisheries | Koi for Sale | Koi Farm | Koi Fish

The short version is about 30 years ago a gift of Indonesian long finned carp(large brownish long finned carp) were presented to the then Prince/current emperior of Japan. He gave them to one of the Niigata fisheries research station who bred them with koi. This produced a brown colored cross that had long fins and grew very rapidily but was not very pretty. Suda san saw these babies and got the idea to take some of them and cross back to regular koi for a few generations. The orginal goal was to produce larger more heartier koi not long finned koi. However after a few generations. There were some very pretty long finned "koi" produced that customers wanted to buy. At the same time there were some babies that grew large quickly and had "regular" fins. Some of these normal fin koi went on to be come famous award winning koi at major shows in Japan.

However the long finned koi presented a problem at koi shows as their long fins were considered a disqualification and a decision was made by Japanese koi associations to not allow long finned koi in their shows. So breeding and production of long finned koi almost ceased in Japan for a time. However the long finned koi became popular outside of Japan. Recently several Japanese koi breeders have started breeding long fin koi again as a export product.

[JasPR]

The better answer, I think is twofold;

1) There are many species of carp and a few subspecies of common carp in the world.
In addition there are many many races of domesticated common carp. Mirror carp, Japanese carp, Russian carp, etc these are all unique races of the common carp and can all interbred. But they all have certain characteristics that make them a unique gene pool. And even though mirror carp, leather carp and longfins have been used in the nishikigoi gene pool, the race of nishikigoi is unique unto itself.

2) all domestic carp races are bred for a purpose-- as food or as ornament. In the case of the race known as Japanese carp, the standard calls for a natural looking fish with a robe of unique colors and patterns-- to be viewed from above. In the area of living art, they must move with natural power and grace of a robust wild fish.
the longfin carp , on the other hand, is praised and raised for it's hypertrophy-- or excessive finnage and barbels. It is a more natural colored fish although you can see the elements and patterns of nishikigoi in it's body-- still it is all about the finnage. And in that presentation the longfins gives an entirely different impression when compared to the Japanese koi prototype. Logfins also make better aquarium specimens than Japanese koi do- not swimming as fast and looking much better from a side view than a koi.
In the end, the longfin carp is a different animal than the Japanese Nishikigoi based on standard and impression. Personally I like the black ones and most of the other solid colored ones as they seem so unique and impressive. Not so much for the asagi mimic types and certainly NOT the kohaku types-- they are down right unattractive! yet Those are two fo my favorite varieties in nishikigoi! And a crow in the world of Nishikigoi is down right worthless! yet a big karasu longfin with flowing fins and long dragon like whiskers is a thing to marvel at! That should suggest something! No?

This is not hard as we all see a world of difference between a sarassa comet and an Ranchu lionhead. They are related but different in almost every way.
I say celebrate longfin carp for what they are--- a very exotic form of common domestic carp with Indonesian roots. Why try to make them something they are not? JR

JR

[PapaBear]

Rays explanation is exactly what I have always understood as well.
The Long Fins have a great deal of "novelty" appeal when coupled with a Koi Pattern, but because their fins and body conformation are so far removed from "Nishikigoi" they simply cannot compete on the same playing field.

They "hybrid vigor" outcrossing brought to the Nishikigoi table is legitimate and they have been used well to accomplish that purpose, but the culling is abnormally extensive, which makes marketing nicely patterned Long Fins to the Water Garden marketplace a financial boost to the breeders who use them.

[schildkoi]

I seem to recall a story that Blueridge Fisheries bred long fins orginally by crossing shubunkins and koi...and that these were not sterile. I'm not sure of the accuracy of the claim...just recalling the story.

[ricshaw]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi I seem to recall a story that Blueridge Fisheries bred long fins orginally by crossing shubunkins and koi...and that these were not sterile. I'm not sure of the accuracy of the claim...just recalling the story.

Somebody needs to verify this.

It has been my understanding that Longfins ARE NOT Koi/Goldfish mules.

[Meg]

blueridge claims to have created them right here as a good ol American invention...... maybe, maybe not?
so did the Japanesse do this or Blueridge or perhaps things developed both places?
The Origins of Butterfly Koi - Blue Ridge Fish Hatchery

[PapaBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by Meg blueridge claims to have created them right here as a good ol American invention...... maybe, maybe not? so did the Japanesse do this or Blueridge or perhaps things developed both places? The Origins of Butterfly Koi - Blue Ridge Fish Hatchery

That is the "American" side of the story.
Two distinct efforts happening nearly simultaneously, each oblivious to the other.

[dick benbow]

from a benching standpoint, in the shows I've been involved in, they are measured from tip of the nose to end of the body adjacent to the tail. Some "long"fins have shorter tails then others so in an effort to have comparable body mass, the length of the tail was eliminated . Many was the time when, I heard japanese breeders as judges admitt, they had no idea on how to judge them. still, they are popular here and always a favorite to curious show visitors.

I am under strict orders to keep my eyes open for a longfin chagoi by the wife of a Koi friend of mine. No doubt they're here to stay. I've never owned one but had to think about it a few years back when I found a particularly attractive asagi.

Going back a little furthur, I always liked to see a dealer's stock in oregon who had some of the original brown types with REALLY long barbels. They were quite outlandish and gave the koi a dragon look.