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Thread: The roots of Taisho Sanshoku

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    The roots of Taisho Sanshoku

    Comments by Masuda San , Director of judging Standards ZNA International


    modern Taisho Sanke was first created in 1920. The first major advancement was in 1930's spawning sof Taisho Sanke with the Tomain line of kohaku. And this step became the main ancestry for today's Taisho Sanke.

    From this back ground the Sadazo bloodline arose. Dainichi also rises from this line and becomes a line onto itself in time. Torazo rises and in the 1940's Jinbai sanke becomes a distinct form of good quality, Kakuzumi ( square sumi), flecks here and there of gin and transparent white shiroji. Hi initially, has a slight purplish hue.
    Kichinai arises as a modern Taisho sanke. These sanke are bright in hi and have lovely Tsuya or luster. maruzumi is present on Kichinai. Not a big powerful fish however.
    In the 1950s Mr Sakai, the Elder, creates the Matsunosuke sanke. The fish is controversial at first as it is a slender and long fish with a great deal of ginrin. the key however is they are late bloomers and continue to grow even after age 7. This is a very important contribution to sanke as well as all other varieties. Fukurin is a key point of this line ( Guanine content of skin and scale is high). The hi is very bright and shiny.

    By the 1990s the main bloodline of Sanke is Sadazo with all others being a mixture or variation. Modern Sadazo, Torazo, Dainichi, Kichinai, Jinbei and Matsunosuke, are modern mixtures of Sadazo with unique elements that are recognizable and inheritable.
    In 2000 we see the building of new traits within the breeders of Southern Japan-- and the story continues---

    More at the next ZNA Judge's Meeting in March ( 11th at the CFKS ).

    JR

  2. #2
    Jumbo Tosai_Sunny's Avatar
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    Hi Jim,

    Do ALL Matsunosuke sankes have ginrin scales?

    Sunny

  3. #3
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    Gin Rin Scales and mastsunosuke Gin are two different things. Yes there are Gin Rin sanke produced by INC and there are sanke's from INC that display matsunosuke Gin. there are also sanke without either produced by INC.

  4. #4
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Comments by Masuda San , Director of judging Standards ZNA International


    modern Taisho Sanke was first created in 1920. The first major advancement was in 1930's spawning sof Taisho Sanke with the Tomain line of kohaku. And this step became the main ancestry for today's Taisho Sanke.

    From this back ground the Sadazo bloodline arose. Dainichi also rises from this line and becomes a line onto itself in time. Torazo rises and in the 1940's Jinbai sanke becomes a distinct form of good quality, Kakuzumi ( square sumi), flecks here and there of gin and transparent white shiroji. Hi initially, has a slight purplish hue.
    Kichinai arises as a modern Taisho sanke. These sanke are bright in hi and have lovely Tsuya or luster. maruzumi is present on Kichinai. Not a big powerful fish however.
    In the 1950s Mr Sakai, the Elder, creates the Matsunosuke sanke. The fish is controversial at first as it is a slender and long fish with a great deal of ginrin. the key however is they are late bloomers and continue to grow even after age 7. This is a very important contribution to sanke as well as all other varieties. Fukurin is a key point of this line ( Guanine content of skin and scale is high). The hi is very bright and shiny.

    By the 1990s the main bloodline of Sanke is Sadazo with all others being a mixture or variation. Modern Sadazo, Torazo, Dainichi, Kichinai, Jinbei and Matsunosuke, are modern mixtures of Sadazo with unique elements that are recognizable and inheritable.
    In 2000 we see the building of new traits within the breeders of Southern Japan-- and the story continues---

    More at the next ZNA Judge's Meeting in March ( 11th at the CFKS ).

    JR
    There is a wonderful story in one of the older rinko magazines titled something like "When sumi appeared on Kohaku". It related the unexpected and unappreciated appearence of sumi on kohaku bred by Sato. Most of these spoiled kohaku were discarded. However another breeder Hoshino heard about these kohaku with sumi and went to see them. As it turned out there were 3-4 od these spoiled kohaku kept just to see if the sumi would disappear. At first Sato was embarrassed by the "spoiled" kohaku but he eventually agreed to sell them to Hoshino. They were purchased and crossed with a shiro bekko to produce the first modern sanke about 1917.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  5. #5
    Sansai
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    Any pictures for this thread, JR?

  6. #6
    Jumbo Tosai_Sunny's Avatar
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    Jim/Dick,

    Here is the video that prompted my question regarding the ginrin on Matsunosuke sanke. Maybe it's lost in translation, but it sounded like Mamoru Kodama San was saying that having ginrin scales is one of the way to identify Matsunosuke line. Do you think he meant Gin and not GinRin?
    Episode #6 - Lets Talk Koi by Mamoru Kodama - Matsunosuke Sanke *

    Hope this works; I have never attached links before.

    Thanks again,
    Sunny
    Membership: Dallas Koi Kichi Group / Texas Koi & Fancy Goldfish Society ZNA
    Subscription: Koi USA Magazine

  7. #7
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    What came first in Sanke's genetic lines Sadazo, Matsunosuke, or Torazo?

  8. #8
    Jumbo
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori View Post
    What came first in Sanke's genetic lines Sadazo, Matsunosuke, or Torazo?
    Torazo came first and Sadazo was almost same time.

    then, Jinbei and Matsunosuke were produced from Torazo blood lline.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    There was sanke and then the modern sanke. Sadazo is the core of Modern sanke.

    On the Matsunosuke gin---- it is a linked genetic trait- linked to fukurin potential in the skin. The 'thing' that makes Matsunosuke important at the time was it's slow development and then skin matruity that made the fish very bright and full of luster and fukurin ( twp types). This was important as many of the sanke lines were duller in beni and matured at a younger/smaller age/size.
    The linked trait of gin and fukurin is not surprising as BOTH features are guanine driven- just a matter of how the gene expresses itself. ZNA actually presented a ginrin rule years ago, so as to recognize this feature as 'a rip' and unique to a line ( Matsunosuke) and not true ginrin as called for the standard- rows of ginrin as opposed to a 'rip' of ginrin in a line across the peduncle or side ( typical of matsunosuke gin). JR

    P.S. there was a great Sadazo type Taisho Sanshoku in this year's All Japan. Dainichi by brand, Sadazo by phenotype. Can anyone guess which one it was?

  10. #10
    Jumbo Tosai_Sunny's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    There was sanke and then the modern sanke. Sadazo is the core of Modern sanke.

    On the Matsunosuke gin---- it is a linked genetic trait- linked to fukurin potential in the skin. The 'thing' that makes Matsunosuke important at the time was it's slow development and then skin matruity that made the fish very bright and full of luster and fukurin ( twp types). This was important as many of the sanke lines were duller in beni and matured at a younger/smaller age/size.
    The linked trait of gin and fukurin is not surprising as BOTH features are guanine driven- just a matter of how the gene expresses itself. ZNA actually presented a ginrin rule years ago, so as to recognize this feature as 'a rip' and unique to a line ( Matsunosuke) and not true ginrin as called for the standard- rows of ginrin as opposed to a 'rip' of ginrin in a line across the peduncle or side ( typical of matsunosuke gin). JR

    P.S. there was a great Sadazo type Taisho Sanshoku in this year's All Japan. Dainichi by brand, Sadazo by phenotype. Can anyone guess which one it was?
    Thanks JR! I guess I need to read up on gin and fukurin.

    Is this the koi? I got the picture from Mark Gardner's website(Niigata-Nishikigoi.com)

    __________________
    Sunny
    Membership: Dallas Koi Kichi Group / Texas Koi & Fancy Goldfish Society ZNA
    Subscription: Koi USA Magazine
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The roots of Taisho Sanshoku-dainichi_sanke.jpg  

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