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Thread: the world's smallest koi?

  1. #21
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    More importantly, they say when a breeder or reseacher removes the tobies in a wild setting, a new group of tobies arises from the population to take their place! That would imply that this is all a social dynamic and involves domination for space and food at the expense of the weaker siblings. JR
    I have read that where fry are separated by size after a culling and grown separately, there is little difference in the size ranges of the two groups at the next culling. Both groups will show size variation. Of course, runts and large wild-reversions are culled, so extremes may be minimized by the culling process. Just something I've read. I don't recall where.

  2. #22
    Daihonmei
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    Mmmm, Not sure either? having walked the koi houses and tosai houses of yamamatsu, Dainichi, Saji, Sakai, Sakai SFF, Momotaro, Shintaro, Hasagawa, Torazo, Yagengi, marudo, Konishi, Itoh, Kuzuto and many others, I can't say that I've noticed that? They do of course separate by grades for both sales and for different treatment, the sizes are pretty uniform.
    You Might be thinking of the test that Momo did with winter tosai and unwintered tosai ( forced growth) after year two? JR

  3. #23
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    ... they say when a breeder or reseacher removes the tobies in a wild setting, a new group of tobies arises from the population to take their place! That would imply that this is all a social dynamic and involves domination for space and food at the expense of the weaker siblings. JR
    I was doing some research recently and stumbled onto some stuff that touched on this aspect in Freshwater Shrimp farming. Claw Color is the clue used to spot the Shrimp equivalent of "toby" and they produce a growth inhibitor that effects the rest if they are not removed.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei
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    well sure, that is also the case with research on carp tobies. I have to say that study was around the time that pheromones and gldfish adult populations were studied. The idea there really being that concentrations of hormones was a key factor in feed back effect on growth hormones and the pituitary output. And that is why I'm a bit suspect about the overall impression we get about tobies as genetically gifted ( verses evironmentally induced). Like most of these things in nature, it is likely a combination of genetic potential, survival traits and environmental cues and feedback-- and not a simple case of a super missing link type individual. JR

  5. #25
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    I spawn my favorite koi in plastic pools with brushes. I remove the brushes to mud ponds for hatching. Many eggs remain on the sides and bottoms. I try to raise some of these to closely watch their development. Lack of live food is always a problem. After the spawn I clean the water by changing much of it and this also reduces the number of remaining fry. I feed newly hatched brine, liquefied cooked egg white, and finely crushed flake food. After a couple or 3 weeks they have grown. I catch something like an Asagi trio that I only want to raise a few from and put them in with the fry after a large water change. They quickly spawn and I remove the breeders, and then the brushes to smaller water troughs for hatching and feeding later, and some are taken to mud ponds to increase the variety of what I'm raising. A day or two after the spawn I do a large water change to remove the nasty water and infertile egg masses. Some fry may be removed when siphoning and that is fine. As the new spawn begin to hatch they are greedily eaten by the older fry, but there is food for many days. I continue to feed newly hatched brine shrimp to the pool and also the troughs, so the food is nutrient loaded. As the tiny fry in the pool are consumed by the older spawn I just keep adding more from the troughs along with other types of food. This method results in good growth of the first spawn and gets them to a size where they more readily accept prepared foods. I use sponge filters in the pools/troughs and also try to do regular water changes. I'm probably raising near 100% cannibals with this method, but growth is good and the baby koi give me a pretty good idea of what is in the mud ponds without seining. I will say growth is much more uniform than when I tried to raise large spawns with limited food in 12' diameter Inpex swimming pools where "tobies" always seemed to develop. I always put a few eggs in tubs with live pond plants too. I'm always amazed how well/quickly these few fry grow to two inches or so, with no added food or filter in often times about 2'x 2' tubs. Raising koi this way is a lot of work compared to the mud ponds, but it is a great way to observe and learn and fun too.
    Mitch

  6. #26
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Genetics are a constant and the environmental factors are variable. For the hobby breeder, a controlled study on tobi growth vs regular va small regular growth might be beyond little more than anecdotal evidence.

    I have documented my koi and find some interesting observations.

    In my experience, the tobi event is only a small portion of the population. perhaps only 2-3%. The removal of the tobi population does result in a new individual(s), although I have not seen these grow quite as fast as the first lot. But there could be some environmental feedback going on the slow them down. The female koi in my avatar was a tobi and remains the larger of her fellow brother and sisters. But one koi does not make the rule.

    The photos below are a couple of tobis from a sanke spawn this year.



    But then I have seen plenty of ugly koi get culled early that had a better size and perhaps these would have become tobi proper.

    For my breeding goals, I am interested those that grow quickly and the largest, so I'll wait and see how they progress.

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