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Thread: Vendor's show tubs

  1. #1
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Vendor's show tubs

    Now that I have become more interested in koi water, I recently had a chance to observe many tubs of water at a koi show. I mentioned in another thread that I observed people now bringing their own pre-seeded filters. The tub water and fish seemed very happy. I had no way of sampling water but I had water clearity, smell and fish health to see. I saw everything from fish laying on their sides to fish acting like they were at 100% on day 2. I can't help believe the filter addition does wonders mechanicaly but also by amonia removal via seeded filter medium .

  2. #2
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    I know what you are talking about. There was such a huge difference in how those vendor tanks looked, as compared to other tanks at that show. Some were downright disgusting! How anyone would buy a fish from such filthy tanks is beyond me. The smell was overpowering. I know Carolina Koi Farm brought cycled canister filters with them for their two big tanks, and just air on the little portable tank they brought. They checked their water every morning and there was no measurable ammonia. I asked him if they were checking nitrites and he said no, they just kept some salt in the tank in case there was nitrites present. The small tank did need water changes and ammonia binder to keep it healthy.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    I brought home a dozen tiny koi and put them in my usual 100 gallon flow through, 10 gallons every 2 hours Q system. This time I pulled my canister filter off my aquarium and hooked it up to Q tank. Very easy to do. The results are enormous. Smell down and floating debris gone. I also run a small airstone.
    JR mentioned something about rebound time heterotrophs multiplying to which I would like to understand further.
    I would also like to know why some koi were listing over in some tubs. Is this a pH thing or ammonia thing? I realize koi are being subjected to different water but some of the reactions were alarming to a degree.
    By the way..,my koi are all doing fine just fine tuning.

  4. #4
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    The difference was amazing.

    I had a credit at one dealer and there was a fish I really wanted but the water looked awful and the smell was worse so kept my credit and went elsewhere.

  5. #5
    Oyagoi
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    i always wonder if some vendors if they have seeded media filters or filters with Carbon in them

    maybe both

  6. #6
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pskorf View Post
    i always wonder if some vendors if they have seeded media filters or filters with Carbon in them

    maybe both
    I'll Email Robert and ask him what kind of media he had in the filters and how he transported it. I know it's quite a long drive from South Carolina.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi CarolinaGirl's Avatar
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    Robert Emailed me back and said the filters are cartridge filters. They keep the cartridges in one of the filters at the farm so they are active, and they transport them to the shows exactly like a fish...in a bag of water with oxygen. It seems to work for them because their water looked wonderful.

  8. #8
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Now that is interesting....good work CarolinaGirl!

  9. #9
    Fry
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    show tanks

    As a rule I don't post. But I was mentioned so I just wanted to say it does not take much to keep a show tank clean. The idea of a filter has been used for years I don't now why more dealers don't use them. Any kind of filter will help, I don't want to be seen as blowing my owen horn but me and my partner care about our fish so we take care of them. I am with Carolina girl in that if I see a nasty tank at the show I know that vender is not taking care of his fish and I don't want one of them.

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Good morning! Yes, it 'seems like' adding a preseeded filter to show tank would give one all the comforts and stability that the filter at home did. And no one should be surprised that many who have come before us had this same vision and tried it at their shows over the past three decades. The old BKKS had a version, the MAKC once had the same idea. Even Japan's two All Japan shows once tried incorporating preseeded discs to the aeration systems. In a modern form, and thinking past the nitrification cycle discs, we even saw portable foam fractionators employed in show tanks at the holland show. I've personally observed foam discs under lids, Japanese mat, corner filters, hang on outside biofilters ( those were clever) and even at one show ( they allowed hobbyists to do their own thing on their own vats) a rolling sand filter which was biologically active!
    The bigger conversation here is a detailed review of the major differences between a mud pond, the home pond and the show vat, as each is a very different environment and requires an entirely different biological reality and therefore requires a different approach. But maybe that is for another time?
    Back to the idea of applying/adapting a home seeded filter to come to a koi show-- You can get lucky if the trip is not too long ( a biofilm starts to stress and die without circulation, continual nutrient and oxygen) and the new conditions are similar ( same temperature, pH) and the water is chlorine free. But generally speaking the rebound time of a stressed biofilm is from hours to days and if the second stage is knocked down, might represent a source of pollution as much as a help aid!
    The circulation of a biofilter in a holding tank or show vat is, on the other hand a good thing-- a canister filled with active or even chemical media like activated carbon or poly filter has a physical benefit ( straining) and absorbing benefit for things like ammonia. And so it can be imagined that the bacteria is cleaning water and making water look polished when in fact it can be a purely mechanical effect ( think swimming pool filters). The rate of exchange in a small show vat can be high.
    Observation in multiple vats with seeded filters ( such as the blue dome with polester pads inside) that we saw so often in the 1990s in show tanks, showed that amquel was still needed in a large percentage of the vats. yet being air driven, they also added aeration ( surface aggitation), circulation and physical/mechanical water straining leading to clear water. All good things. Still, the water folks had to watch their ammonia levels. In the end that proved that biofilters in newly set up show vats was a spotty performer at best.

    The heterotrophic bacteria species are the 'bunny rabbits' of the invisible world! They can move thru the water column ( unlike nitrifiers that need to be fed while stuck on their couches) and reproduce like--- well, bunny rabbits! Check that-- better than bunny rabbits. Once every twenty minutes. Verses the nitrifiers that can do the same in 4- 7 HOURS. Heterotrophic species are omni-present and often are the 'cloudiness' we see in the water column. Once the fish are put into a clean show vat, they do what koi do-- they pass algae and gut mucous into the water ( koi, in effect, urinate a weak flow all the time). This is the natural 'seeding' of bacteria that koi introduce along with the 'fuel' to turn these mini bunnies into thousands upon thousands of individuals by the end of the first day!
    More importantly, these critters will 'eat' ammonia and partly convert it to nitrIte but only in a few cases to nitrAte.
    This by the way, is THE dynamic in a new koi pond known as new pond syndrome and in that event, these hetertrophic species can delay and hold off a nitrification cycle by weeks. In fact this is how and who the artificial method of cycling a pond came about.
    So think of a show vat as a 48-72 hour new pond syndrome event. And you will begin to appreciate how even an established biofilter ( established elsewhere) will struggle as it has these two challenges- 1) to overcome transport stress and new conditions and rebound and 2) compete with the free range bacteria that can survive on the same nutrient the nitrifiers need. JR

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