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Thread: Beni Study - Predictions

  1. #1
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Beni Study - Predictions

    We often talk about thin beni, stable beni, what hue to look for, how much sashi, strength of kiwa, hoshi etc...

    I've compiled photos over time of 4 koi so we can have some fun and try to predict where they're headed and what are the hints of such.

    I realize that it's photos. Can't bend the fish to look under the scales, the hue is dependent on how the camera sees it etc. However, we often have people posting photos when considering a purchase, or after a purchase and I thought it would be educational if anything can be garnered from these pictures.

    Now some of you may know these koi, and with a little diligence you could search through the history on this forum and through updates that I've provided tell exactly where this is headed. But I challenge those that are interested in making predictions based only on what they can see.

    I've done the best I can to find photos with good resolution and un-doctored. Meaning non enhancement or digital alteration of exposure, temp. etc.

    So, here's 4 different koi when first acquired.

    Grant

    P.S. - I even changed my avatar for this one. Now it's one of my competition dogs.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Beni Study - Predictions-koi1.jpg   Beni Study - Predictions-koi1closeup.jpg   Beni Study - Predictions-koi2.jpg   Beni Study - Predictions-koi2closeup.jpg   Beni Study - Predictions-koi3.jpg  

    Beni Study - Predictions-koi3closeup.jpg   Beni Study - Predictions-koi4.jpg   Beni Study - Predictions-koi4closeup.jpg  

  2. #2
    Tategoi
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    I think that all these koi are very nice. A few picture shows gin rin ish and this make that koi better then nice as it will sell better to a beginner or a newb. All the fish have a nice red. I know you were trying to show the edgeing of the koi, but I can care less about it right now.

    So, are there any fish in here that is better then very nice? Are there any high quality koi? Did anyone of these fish make it as a GC? or 36"+? My prediction is no, non of these koi made it to be 36"+ nor GC. Am I correct? However, they are very nice.
    Akitsushima Tombo

  3. #3
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chang26k View Post
    I think that all these koi are very nice. A few picture shows gin rin ish and this make that koi better then nice as it will sell better to a beginner or a newb. All the fish have a nice red. I know you were trying to show the edgeing of the koi, but I can care less about it right now.

    So, are there any fish in here that is better then very nice? Are there any high quality koi? Did anyone of these fish make it as a GC? or 36"+? My prediction is no, non of these koi made it to be 36"+ nor GC. Am I correct? However, they are very nice.
    Actually I was trying to see if you could gain any insight by looking at the edging. One of these the beni imploded. One the beni is rock solid, the other two are still changing. I personally don't know what to look for or what my be a warning sign that the beni isn't long for the world and was hoping through some discussion that we might learn something.

    There's a baby grand champion in the group, and young champion and a junior champion as well. So yeah, I'd agree, they're nice. High quality? That's what I'm trying to learn...

    Grant

  4. #4
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Grant , With your short growing seasons we probably won't see the "Growing Pains" we see in other photos of Gosanke.

    You are a true keeper of water so your koi takes care of themself.

    Of the koi you posted , I would have concern with the Beni of the 2nd Kohaku (3rd Koi) , from the photo the Kiwa on that Koi looks possibly weak. I wonder if this will be less of a issue because of the shorter growing seasons you have?


    Could be a interesting thread, thanks for starting it.

  5. #5
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Very good thread Grant. I am going to do something that I probably shouldnt do and that is go away from Troys opinion.

    This is simply my opinion but I am assuming these koi are still young. The second koi "1st kohaku" is the one that would worry me. I see some hard scalloped looking edges that look like the beni pattern is finished. But also on the same koi I seem some edges that to me look like they may be starting to recede.

    There is a good chance this observation is completely wrong. And it probably is.

  6. #6
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies Troy and Jeremy.

    Like I said. I'm no expert but hope to learn something from this. Upon reading both of your thoughts I went back and really looked hard at the photos and I can see what you're both talking about. I won't tilt the hand just yet in case there's any else who'd like to venture a prediction.

    I will also say that all the photos provided so far are the koi as tosai. Some bigger, some smaller but all tosai. I still have all 4 in my pond and the oldest is now 4 and the youngest is 2. Not a lot of years to watch the change, but certainly there has been some change that I found interesting. I've also made things tough for these koi by moving them indoors without natural lighting each winter for up to 6 months per year. I do have four fluorescent tubes that are grow lights but from the complete lack of algae formed in my garage "pond" I assume they were ineffective. Two of the koi here show absolutely zero effect from the lack of natural light. Of my 7 gosanke all but the two here went through a change in the intensity of their beni depending on whether they were inside or out. I've only tried color food once and didn't like the effect it had on the non-gosanke koi I own so after the tester of a 4lb bag, I haven't used it since.

    Being that these weren't $2000.00 + dollar koi I can only say that they are from SFF and most likely from the rose bloodline. With the exception of course being the sanke, still from SFF, but not the rose bloodline. The sanke was included because there was a cool surprise in her beni that I didn't see coming...

    Grant

  7. #7
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Sticking the old neck out on photographs...but here goes

    Koi 1 (the Sanke) does have modest gin flecking that I would equate more with Matsunosuke influences than GinRin. I'm betting that with the high guanine content and mildly persimmon/red hue that the beni has a great deal of depth and elasticity to grow with.

    Koi 2 and 3 seem to be very similar in the overall impression within the hi plates. While there are a few small areas within the kiwa that may appear weak in a picture I'm writing that off to seasonality and immaturity. I'm guessing they are both solid today.

    Koi 4 shows a bit of bleeding in the kiwa in several places that give me pause, but the shiroji seems very lustrous at the same time. That seems to be a contradiction in terms of overall quality traits, but I'm betting this one has undergone some hi plate contraction.

    I'm probably full of beans but that's it for my pictoral prognostication.

    Edit...
    I went back and re-looked, and my opinion on 3 and 4 may need to be swapped
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  8. #8
    Nisai jtp79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaBear View Post
    Sticking the old neck out on photographs...but here goes

    Koi 1 (the Sanke) does have modest gin flecking that I would equate more with Matsunosuke influences than GinRin. I'm betting that with the high guanine content and mildly persimmon/red hue that the beni has a great deal of depth and elasticity to grow with.

    Koi 2 and 3 seem to be very similar in the overall impression within the hi plates. While there are a few small areas within the kiwa that may appear weak in a picture I'm writing that off to seasonality and immaturity. I'm guessing they are both solid today.

    Koi 4 shows a bit of bleeding in the kiwa in several places that give me pause, but the shiroji seems very lustrous at the same time. That seems to be a contradiction in terms of overall quality traits, but I'm betting this one has undergone some hi plate contraction.

    I'm probably full of beans but that's it for my pictoral prognostication.

    Edit...
    I went back and re-looked, and my opinion on 3 and 4 may need to be swapped

    Process of elimination Larry,,,,,,if somebody will come along and say the sanke is gonna lose its beni,,,,one of us will be right. lol

  9. #9
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Good observations Larry. And yeah, it's tough with photos...

    Here's another thought for consideration. JR has spoken in the past about primitive patterns versus more refined patterns. Or in other words the primitive pattern being a wrapped wild pattern and the more refined being dorsal based piebald. He's spoke about how the more primitive is usually more stable than the dorsal piebald type. Probably why a great tancho is so hard to come by. The expression of the gene to produce such a small area of beni must be quite mild and therefore skirting the edge between something permanent and temporary? Speculation here, but food for thought...

    Grant

  10. #10
    Oyagoi gcuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtp79 View Post
    Process of elimination Larry,,,,,,if somebody will come along and say the sanke is gonna lose its beni,,,,one of us will be right. lol

    Now that was funny.

    Grant

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