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Thread: Dainichi Hi Utsuri

  1. #11
    Nisai kaidoi's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting - nice fish! I like the richness of the Hi and that there is not a lot of "stray" sumi. Conformation is also very nice.

    It would have been nice to have both pecs with motoguro. Also, I personally like Hi Utsuri with more sumi. But if these items were in place, then I'm sure it would be considerably more expensive.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaidoi View Post
    It would have been nice to have both pecs with motoguro.

    As far as I can see neither pec has motoguro, it's not a trait seen in Hi Utsuri, they normally have striped or primarily black pectoral fins.

    My hunch is that this fish has actually come from Shinoda. It's very common amongst the younger breeders to move fish around, especially it seems amongst the Sannichikai members (although Shinoda isn't one, Dainichi is).

  3. #13
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post

    My hunch is that this fish has actually come from Shinoda. It's very common amongst the younger breeders to move fish around, especially it seems amongst the Sannichikai members (although Shinoda isn't one, Dainichi is).

    Got to Love some of the Inside Information we can get Here !

    Thanks

  4. #14
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    As far as I can see neither pec has motoguro, it's not a trait seen in Hi Utsuri, they normally have striped or primarily black pectoral fins.
    Interesting isn't it. And for all the teaching done on this board I hope the answer to why might be explanable. I think we have pletny of clues.

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I would not be concerned about the head or pectorals. The mass of the body affects the visual proportions.

    The surface glare and water movement create a challenge, but the red ground seems nicely even and soft. The lack of balance in the pectorals may be off-putting for many, but it can be forgiven. It is interesting that a bit of white appears on one pec giving a hint of Aka Hajiro. It seems to me that a deeper red color tone develops over time when white is present than when it is not. We do not see Hi Utsuri of this quality very often in the U.S. I would not acquire this fish because I do not think I could do her justice.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Interesting isn't it. And for all the teaching done on this board I hope the answer to why might be explanable. I think we have pletny of clues.
    Bradley

    We see motoguro in Shiro Utsuri because they inherit the trait from Showa.

    Ki and Hi Utsuri are much older varieties without the refinement.

    Someone can probably give a more detailed explanation, i seem to think there may have been one in Mondo but I don't have a copy.

    Mark

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by markgardner View Post
    As far as I can see neither pec has motoguro, it's not a trait seen in Hi Utsuri, they normally have striped or primarily black pectoral fins.

    My hunch is that this fish has actually come from Shinoda. It's very common amongst the younger breeders to move fish around, especially it seems amongst the Sannichikai members (although Shinoda isn't one, Dainichi is).
    Yes Mark, it's true breeders usually buy koi from other breeders from auctions or trade kois for fun. I was told by Shigeru that if you keep looking at a particular type of koi all the time your focus will get side tracked, so Shigeru usually looks at different varieties of kois from time to time to sharpen his skills. This koi is 100% Dainichi Showa of Kokuygo bloodline.

    The video was made after it was harvest in early October 2010, so the koi didn't look very good at that time. I revisited the farm on May of this year and was very impressed with the body and skin quality so I decided to purchase her. On occation Dainichi usually get a few hi utsuri and shiro utsuri from their showa bloodline but they are culled during tosai stage. If they see something impressive they usually keep it up to nisai to see the changes and then sell off to customers. Very rarely do they keep any past sansai because they don't have the pond space to grow these kois. Shigeru told me that for a hobbiest who is into showing their kois Gosanke are the main courses of the meal and everything else is usually considered the dessert of a meal. I'm usually a gosanke guy, but this koi impressed me alot so I decided to purchase her to sharpen my eyes and also to satisfy my sweet tooth.

    This koi is a sansai about 65-68cm and still in quarantine, I will bowl her and take new pictures and videos for you to see this weekend.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4TEXAS View Post
    Just picked up this awesome looking Hi Utsuri from "Dainichi" , what do you think?

    YouTube - ‪MrDainichi's Channel‬‏

    I have seen this koi being bowled at Dainichi many times, many people like this type of koi. But most people thinks it is to expensive to buy because it is not a gosanke, even if it is a showa type koi. Very, very nice koi, I am glad you buy the koi. I only see this quality koi only a few times at Dainichi and they do not keep this type of koi, because they only breed gosanke. Thank you for sharing.

  9. #19
    Oyagoi
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    Hmmm....reinforces my dislike for the variety. When a customer asked for a fish that was "all red and black," I'd steer them away from hi utsuri and towards hi showa or aka sanke.

    Do not care at all for the white in the fins, the hi isn't red (or even close), and just do not see that fish as being able to compete in a show against shiro utsuri at all. A collector's item, maybe. I've had a few show up (from showa and utsuri spawns) over the years, they sell good and fetch good prices, I just do not care for the variety. At a show with a vendor tank, I always got more money for bad ki and hi utsuri than I ever could for good shiro utsuri. Go figure.

    The only "Dainichi" utsuri I ever saw were tosai shiro utsuri brought here by Shigeru and he told me they were all by-products of showa breeding.

    Although the big three have been and I'm certain will continue to be the staple for Dainichi, I have seen other breeds of fish they've experimented with. Shigeru tried kujaku and told me "too difficult, no pattern." They were bred from an old female they'd had a very long time. Also seen some goshiki they experimented with.

    For me, Dainichi will always be the penultimate breeder of gosanke.
    Brett

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishbreeder View Post
    Hmmm....reinforces my dislike for the variety. When a customer asked for a fish that was "all red and black," I'd steer them away from hi utsuri and towards hi showa or aka sanke.

    Do not care at all for the white in the fins, the hi isn't red (or even close), and just do not see that fish as being able to compete in a show against shiro utsuri at all. A collector's item, maybe. I've had a few show up (from showa and utsuri spawns) over the years, they sell good and fetch good prices, I just do not care for the variety. At a show with a vendor tank, I always got more money for bad ki and hi utsuri than I ever could for good shiro utsuri. Go figure.

    The only "Dainichi" utsuri I ever saw were tosai shiro utsuri brought here by Shigeru and he told me they were all by-products of showa breeding.

    Although the big three have been and I'm certain will continue to be the staple for Dainichi, I have seen other breeds of fish they've experimented with. Shigeru tried kujaku and told me "too difficult, no pattern." They were bred from an old female they'd had a very long time. Also seen some goshiki they experimented with.

    For me, Dainichi will always be the penultimate breeder of gosanke.

    Brett

    Some very interesting comments. Before I continue any comments are not specific to the Hi Utsuri posted.

    In terms of 'refinement' I fully understand what you mean about directing customers to Hi Showa, not so sure about Aka Bekko ;-)

    One of the 'attractive' things about Hi Utsuri is probably the fact they can get to 1m, I've seen some very impressive 90cm+ examples. When I say impressive they aren't just big but they are bright and clean examples too, i.e. rare.

    Of course not all Hi Utsuri can reach 90cm+, they are special examples from special parents, they aren't the 'accidents', are they? Maybe there are accidents, those from Showa, that can achieve that? Inevitably 99.9% are culled by Showa breeders.

    I was shown a Dainichi Shiro Utsuri at a show recently. To say it was ordinary was an understatement. For whatever reason it was kept at Dainichi (apparently).

    Why is Dainichi the 'penultimate'?

    Mark
    Mark Gardner

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