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Thread: The "mystery" tosai

  1. #11
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    I've found that those with more sumi when young generally change less as they age. The changes themselves are in the main dependant on water temperature and photo period, where the modifing gene (also called the spreading white gene) is triggered by these. It pays to watch the them from when they are young. Some hardly change at all as the gene is inactive, but they also tend to have the most sumi from a young age. Most of these end up as hageshiro and hijaro. Then there are those that change often, where the gene is more active. Due to the ever changing nature of the pattern in the later type, selection should never be first on pattern, but on everything else. What I like most about the educational value of these koi is that they force you to appreciate & select on the non-pattern criteria first.

    Really good thoughts, Mr. Bradley.
    I definitely agree. There is not much regarding pattern/color you can pick with these. I picked this one with my daughter and wife present. I explained to them that the head was big on it, and that the mouth was wide, which was a good thing. I also explained that the dorsal scales were even, although they do not run up complete to the head. The underside of the fish was a light blue color, which I found intriguing to say the least. For $5 or $10 (don’t remember), it was worth it.
    It is interesting that you mention that there could be little change, but that change is dependant on water parameters, etc…
    The views I have are completely representative of who I am, and may/may not be representative of clubs I may or may not be a part of.

  2. #12
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    I appreciate sumi and so one like this always grabs my attention in several ways. Black has a unique charm for me.

    I do have to ask the judges who are willing to post, what their impression of doitsu is when there are scales missing between the shoulder and the dorsal fin?

    BB
    Doitsu goi having the larger mirror type scalation that has two rows running down the back and along the lateral line are the preferred most refined type of doitsu type koi. After conformation the arrangement of the scales on a doitsu is the 2nd most important element in appreciation.

    The type of scalation seen on the koi in this thread is called a leather carp. They generally have a small scales running on both sides of the dorsal fin. Some will be completely bare of any scales. Leather carp are considered less refined than mirror types.

    This is one reason why in most shows shusui are kept in a combined class with asagi. Shusui are expected to have proper uniform mirror type scalation and would win most rankings against other types of doitsu if placed in a common class at a show. However with some exceptions most other doitsu varieties are not culled according to proper mirror type scalation. Perhaps because if they were there would be very very few doitsu koi available.

    I have seen some unhappy hobbyists that paid a lot for a shusui with a beautiful color/pattern discover that because it was a leather carp type it was out ranked by a shusui with a less colorful pattern but a well aligned mirror scale display.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    Good call, Ray. I’ll show some pictures of the side of the fish here in a little bit.

    Here is a picture of the fish after it was in my pond for a little over a month.









    It is 11” in the picture, having gained 3-4 inches in 6 weeks being in my pond. As you can see, things are beginning to change a bit with her (I do think it to be a “her”, until proven otherwise).





    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "mystery" tosai-photo-24-.jpg  

  4. #14
    Nisai
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    Hmm

    Thanks Ray, that is interesting. I was actually preferring and selecting the leather carp in my doitsu selection. I can see how this would be the case for Shusui as the doitsu scales are colored blue, and thus add some flare to the koi, but it's not often that I think these additional zipper scales on the back and sides look good on other doitsu varieties (As they are almost never perfectly even, and in my mind's eye, it does more to disrupt pattern than add to it). Nonetheless as you stated, this is good information to have when showing doitsugoi. There was one tiny scrawny kumonryu someone posted the other day that I thought the mirror scales made look really interesting, because the edges of the scales were black and the middles were that translucent rainbow reflector. It looked like ripples of sumi down the side.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    I appreciate sumi and so one like this always grabs my attention in several ways. Black has a unique charm for me.

    I do have to ask the judges who are willing to post, what their impression of doitsu is when there are scales missing between the shoulder and the dorsal fin?

    BB
    With or without scales.......Does it really matter for you in terms of overall beauty?

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xlaziox View Post
    I was actually preferring and selecting the leather carp in my doitsu selection. **** but it's not often that I think these additional zipper scales on the back and sides look good on other doitsu varieties (As they are almost never perfectly even, and in my mind's eye, it does more to disrupt pattern than add to it).
    I agree, but it is a question of degree. The more nearly perfect the scale alignment, the more 'plain vanilla' the leather carp becomes.

  7. #17
    Oyagoi Ethan25's Avatar
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    and here it is the other day when I bowled it. just under 15", and sumi

    only on the bottom and near the gill plates.

    Here's a video and a few pictures.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGEN0ElRSHE






    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The "mystery" tosai-dsc02526.jpg   The "mystery" tosai-dsc02533.jpg  

  8. #18
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Wait for it!!!

  9. #19
    Nisai
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    I have in my pond what is now a large male doitsu koi. He is now a solid velvety-black with pure white points at the fins and nose. I guess you would now call him haijaro (sp?). To myself, I still refer to him as kumonryu, even though he has never had the violent color changes usually associated with that variety. As tosai, he was, at first, colored navy blue and dark forest green! It took several years for him to turn that same shade of blue as your young fish, and then he gradually began turning grey and then black. After about ten years, all that was left of the blue / grey / white on his body was on his head and that resembled some sort of a “roundish” Japanese word / letter. In fact, that was the year I took him to the Central Florida koi show (still called AFCAPS? – I don’t really remember). It really brings back memories, seeing your koi. Enjoy the trip, watching it (her?) grow and mature.

    S. Stone

  10. #20
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Thanks for your comments Ray & Super Kindai

    Doitsu is about matching up the full genetic expression of the phenotype against the preferred show standard. The scales have to be there and in all the right places - ie more refined. The idea of refinement has not been discussed in detail for some time? The further such koi are away from refinement, the closer they get to becoming a pond fish. It would need to have something unique, exceptional and something above and beyond the usual beauty to be hung onto. Those that are exceptional, are exceptions to the refinement rule! Refinement is as far away from the wild-type as possible and approach for the look of the desired show standard.

    When it comes to the early culls it is fairly easy. Keep those with very good scalation. This can be frustrating as there can be some pretty fish find the culling net.

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