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Thread: "Humps"

  1. #1
    Tategoi bobbysuzanna's Avatar
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    "Humps"

    I would like to see what is everyone's opinion on shoulder humps on koi. I have seen it written and have heard judges talk about how it is an indicator of large bone structure and future growth. I have also seen opinions that they don't like the humps and that it can be a sign of an overfed koi.
    Also for those that like the humps, when should you start to see it on koi that are going to be jumbo size? Is there an age that might be premature or if seen in later age koi can it be a sign of later growth?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The notion that a hump is a sign of future growth is not accurate. I have had more than one grow to only moderate size. I also have not noted any correlation with the bone structure possessed by koi that do grow very large. To the contrary, I'd say there is a tendency for young koi destined to grow large not to have a hump.

    My observation has been that an enlarged shoulder hump comes from high quantities of food, particularly during periods when the fish is not putting on length. The hump develops from the storage of fat. When the koi is in a period of rapid growth, it puts nutritional energy into growth over fat deposition. To create an enlarged hump, feed heavily when the water is in the low to mid 60sF. In that temperature range, the fish eats very well and has good metabolism, but growth in length is stymied. The excess nutrition is stored as fat. Of course, feeding heavily on a constant basis encourages development of an enlarged shoulder hump.

    A couple of experiences .... A few summers ago, it hardly got warm in the mid-atlantic area. That Fall at the Nisei Koi Farm harvest, there were far more nisai with enlarged shoulder humps than I have observed at any other harvest. About 10 or so years ago I acquired a 14" nisai Showa imported from Japan. The shoulder hump was gargantuan. I learned that the Showa had been kept in an outdoor pond fed by a mountain spring that was always very cool. No fish in that pond grew well, but they all had large humps. I still have that Showa. She lost the hump in one season of growth and has never had it again.

    Now, we'll see if others have had different observations.

  3. #3
    Jumbo
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    Yes, a pronounced shoulder hump is an expression of a body type, or lineage,... and feeding and pond size and depth can enhance this genetic expression in some cases. It has very little to do with growth potential though. This expression or hump can be seen on short stocky Koi,... as well as on larger Koi. The Manzo Kohaku lineage is known to have this body type.

    i see about 4 distinct body types in Koi.

    Brady Brandwood

    A pic of a common carp.


  4. #4
    Tategoi bobbysuzanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brady Brandwood View Post
    Yes, a pronounced shoulder hump is an expression of a body type, or lineage,... and feeding and pond size and depth can enhance this genetic expression in some cases. It has very little to do with growth potential though. This expression or hump can be seen on short stocky Koi,... as well as on larger Koi. The Manzo Kohaku lineage is known to have this body type.

    i see about 4 distinct body types in Koi.

    Brady Brandwood

    A pic of a common carp.


    Brady,
    Would you mind discussing the body types, how you differentiate, and what your expectations are.

  5. #5
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbysuzanna View Post
    I would like to see what is everyone's opinion on shoulder humps on koi. I have seen it written and have heard judges talk about how it is an indicator of large bone structure and future growth. I have also seen opinions that they don't like the humps and that it can be a sign of an overfed koi.
    Also for those that like the humps, when should you start to see it on koi that are going to be jumbo size? Is there an age that might be premature or if seen in later age koi can it be a sign of later growth?
    Years ago, some experts of the day would explain to us newbies that judges preferred female Koi... and a hump was preferred because it gave the Koi a "masculine" look.


  6. #6
    Fry
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbysuzanna View Post
    Brady,
    Would you mind discussing the body types, how you differentiate, and what your expectations are.
    Hi Dear Bros,I just purchased a 33cm long kohaku with visible shoulder hump.Any comment is very much appreciated.Thank you.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails "Humps"-photo.jpg  

  7. #7
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    There were several questions about shoulder humps at the beginning of this thread.There are many different opinions about shoulder humps. They are more common with certain breeders lines of koi and less common with others. Brady provided an excellent photo of an example of a carp with a wild type body that includes a hump.

    I have been taught that a moderate shoulder hump on a otherwise high quality koi is acceptable but the ideal conformation is a gradual slope from the nose to the tail from all angles of view including a side view looking at the top and bottom curve of the body. So in my opinion a high quality koi with a significant shoulder hump would be even better if it had a more gradual sloping shoulder.

    Regarding show quality koi the goal is refinement of all traits i.e., conformation, skin, color and pattern vs the less refined types of genetic expression.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  8. #8
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgkh0938 View Post
    Hi Dear Bros,I just purchased a 33cm long kohaku with visible shoulder hump.Any comment is very much appreciated.Thank you.
    Good Day Brother

    Probably a short video to help show us the shoulder hump better in this young tosai ??
    Can't see the hump displayed in this photo , but rather the partial exposure of the fish above water level that display a misleading visual of a shoulder hump ? I hope this is a fair comment ?

    David

  9. #9
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    "Humps"-anatomy1a.jpg


    Have to agree with Brother Mike and Brother BB . The notion that a hump is a sign of future growth is indeed never accurate , but rather an expression of a lineage or the genetic display of the koi with the inherent X-factor , and of course it has to be WELL FED !! .

    David

  10. #10
    Fry
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSoon View Post
    Good Day Brother

    Probably a short video to help show us the shoulder hump better in this young tosai ??
    Can't see the hump displayed in this photo , but rather the partial exposure of the fish above water level that display a misleading visual of a shoulder hump ? I hope this is a fair comment ?

    David
    Hi Bro David,Thank you for your fair comment.I have tried to upload a short video but failed.I will keep trying.

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