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Thread: should gravid females be entered in a beauty contest?

  1. #11
    Daihonmei
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    All good comments with some interesting remarks regarding both the big picture and the 'moment of decision'.
    On the 'moment of decision' and considering the beauty contest/educational aspect of the koi show, is it acceptable to say to the public " in spite of 'this' or 'that' THIS still is the most beautiful fish in the show"? JR

  2. #12
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    On the 'moment of decision' and considering the beauty contest/educational aspect of the koi show, is it acceptable to say to the public " in spite of 'this' or 'that' THIS still is the most beautiful fish in the show"?
    JR
    When standing next to a show tank with top winners, it is not the public that questions why a certain Koi is the most beautiful fish. It is some of the other Koi people who "judge" Koi by looking at the 'faults'.

  3. #13
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    All good comments with some interesting remarks regarding both the big picture and the 'moment of decision'.
    On the 'moment of decision' and considering the beauty contest/educational aspect of the koi show, is it acceptable to say to the public " in spite of 'this' or 'that' THIS still is the most beautiful fish in the show"? JR
    Yes, it is acceptable to say to the public" in spite of 'this' or 'that' THIS still is the most beautiful fish in the show"

  4. #14
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    All good comments with some interesting remarks regarding both the big picture and the 'moment of decision'.
    On the 'moment of decision' and considering the beauty contest/educational aspect of the koi show, is it acceptable to say to the public " in spite of 'this' or 'that' THIS still is the most beautiful fish in the show"? JR
    Always easier when an outstanding fish appear among the top picks , and painful decision when most of the top picks share equal merits and different demerits ... and the worst decision is always having to pick the Best amongst the worst !!!

    David

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    All good comments with some interesting remarks regarding both the big picture and the 'moment of decision'.
    On the 'moment of decision' and considering the beauty contest/educational aspect of the koi show, is it acceptable to say to the public " in spite of 'this' or 'that' THIS still is the most beautiful fish in the show"? JR
    For the show to serve an educational purpose, these things need to be explained.

    David raises a central issue with the role of judges. It cannot be much fun to have to select a winner from among mediocre koi in a particular class or size, but a judge is obligated to do so. The comparative weight given to multiple detracting features needs to be explained or misimpressions are created regarding what is acceptable/desirable in a koi. How to explain without causing hurt is more of a challenge than I care to think about. Most often no explanation is given, which is understandable. But, the show then serves no purpose except to reward the entry of fish. A person receives some award and perhaps a mistaken idea that the fish was truly worthy, and the uninformed observer is, at best, confused. More likely, there is a perception regarding the fish or the judges that disserves.

  6. #16
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    I am not sure some newer koi keepers would dare show their koi again if they thought about the risks of transporting a large mature gravid female.

  7. #17
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    I am not sure some newer koi keepers would dare show their koi again if they thought about the risks of transporting a large mature gravid female.
    Onus would be on the participants ( new or old ) , though it's always healthy for fellow veteran participants , Club members , forumers and those around to advise participants ( new or old ) , on risk of transporting a grivid koi to the show , as well as the risk of spawning in the vat ... and even risk of a grivid fish not returning to the owner's pond ..... . There's always some stubborn participants , as well as some who choose to be ignorant . ...

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    Happy New Year David!

    This subject really can expand. It can wander into the risk of moving fully mature gravid females. It can move to a discussion about water temperatures at a show and it can ponder the reality of most western shows which is to say, large gravid females don't show up that often or represent less than 5% of all fish entered. Many ways to expand this subject.
    But for now, consider a magnificant female sanke-- large and robust. With shiny translucent white skin that looks more like fine porcelin than fish skin. Image deep bright colors that rise from that translucent milky depth to appear three dimensional whenever the fish moves it's body in the ripping water of the bowl or net. Picture it's white rounded face with doll like black and silver eyes. Now watch it cruise across the show vat and then realize that the fish only carries a large egg mass on one side of her body-- making her look lopsided to the eye.
    This is a fish of great controversy in any show. The best fish in the show with a problem that would have most other fish passed over with judges and exhibitors likely saying " what a shame about the body". JR

  9. #19
    MCA
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    To me this raises the question of wanting a female to be either a show fish or oyagoi in any given year. If we want to the koi to be a show fish, then shouldn't do things to minimize her being gravid? Given her a real winter with litte to no food comes to mind. And if she turns out to become obviously gravid...why put added risk to her by putting her in a show? At the show her condition would seem to be a risk (other fish hitting her). Plus if she drops eggs, that becomes a water quality risk to her tank mates.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    Right, as you know MCA not all show koi are breeder koi and even less breeder koi are show koi! In theory they should be the same and in modern times they are becoming closer to being one but as a rule they are not.

    It is truly disturbing to know that a higher percentage of robust gravid females in the big All Japan show die returning home or soon thereafter.
    Even though these are winter shows ( and the assumption is that they will be reaborbed in the reporductive tract and actually pump for next years spawn) the fish are off any sense of seasonal cycle as they are hot house conditioned to show well at the big event.

    This is a very interesting area of animal behavior in which one might image that koi 'know' the future. In truth they can't but they repond to simuli and follow the endrocine cycle they are slaves to. So a koi no more knows that winter is coming than a stone knows it is falling due to the laws of gravity! But the metabolic system certainly knows -- UNLESS we fool it with artificial environments. JR

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