Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 54

Thread: western eye to full open

  1. #31
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    The International Nishikigoi Promotion Center (the Shinkokai) have a good genetic family tree of the major nishikigoi varities. As mentioned above you can see that kohaku is descended from asagi.
    Have you seen this one?



    "Live Jewels" General Survey of Fancy Carp, by Masayuki Amano, Kajima Shoten Publishing Co., 1968

  2. #32
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    1,780
    The older koi genealogy chart from Amano's book Live Jewels was published in the late 1960's. The link that MCA posted is a newer revised version of that chart that fills in a few more details but the information is similar. The newer chart shows the pathway from Narumi Asagi to Taki Asagi to Mizu Asagi types that details a bit better the development of a white based koi that eventually became the ancestor of the original kohaku. That the new white based koi was produced from the black based asagi types is truly amazing. Fascinating to consider the years and generations of colored carp that passed on this journey.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  3. #33
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,653
    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    The older koi genealogy chart from Amano's book Live Jewels was published in the late 1960's. The link that MCA posted is a newer revised version of that chart that fills in a few more details but the information is similar. The newer chart shows the pathway from Narumi Asagi to Taki Asagi to Mizu Asagi types that details a bit better the development of a white based koi that eventually became the ancestor of the original kohaku. That the new white based koi was produced from the black based asagi types is truly amazing. Fascinating to consider the years and generations of colored carp that passed on this journey.
    Yes amazing what 40 years can produced!




  4. #34
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Great old blast from the past and an excellent road map to the strain of common carp known as Nishikigoi. But it is not a genetic explanation. More a flow chart of breedings leading to breeds. But I have to be honest, I could print a chart of the main subspecies of wolves and then domesticated wolves and then dog-like wolves and then early breeds and then AKC recognized dog breeds. It's interesting for sure, but severely lacking in detail and definitely not enlightening- in fact it can have the opposite effect and leave unintended assumptions and conclusions. There are many well know authors and Japanese experts who have fallen into this trap and as a result, misteach every day.
    The same would be true for any line bred animals- dogs, cats, horses, chickens, reptiles etc.

    It is very difficult expressing thoughts and ideas on the Internet as the written word can be so easily mis-interpreted. This is why nishikigoi as a study will always be ;
    20% personal experience and observation
    70% apprentice style education
    10% written world ( of which the internet accounts for less than 2% of that estimation).

  5. #35
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    P.S. Ricshaw, NOT 40 years!! The representation you are viewing was a long procession of an internal gene pool. I don't want to bore the reader with constant restatements of history BUT to keep us all on track----

    This chart represents the concentrated efforts to roll out internal gene expression. Once the double recessives are in the gene pool, rolling them out into individual looks is just a matter of numbers---
    these double and recessives are simply the result of any Punnett square calculation- only in large numbers.
    One of the fascinating things about how circumstance worked so well in the making of nishikigoi, is the fact that as a species they 100,000- 300,000 young. In those kind of numbers, the odds of having a few double recessive mutations show up is very high. HIGH that is, ONCE you have the the gene pool to DRAW on!
    The creation of the gene pool was a very long trail-- maybe as much as 200 years ( more likely 160 years in my estimation). And this is WHY, of all the places in the world that common carp exist, ONLY Japan was able to rll out the line of modern nishikigoi.
    China had a moment when natural mutation existed in their stock but they ignored it. Western Japan did not-- it saw the missing link, concentrated on the missing link mutation and slowly created a series of recessive genes. Then expanded that finite pool into every combination possible.
    the picture genealogy is valuable-- but so much more so when you can see the internal genetics in each individual and how it is being expressed in the picture.
    White spreading and white ( leucism) are the core of all gosanke. And makes them the rarest and most valuable. Kohaku for instance have expressed four gene mutations ( can you ame them? )
    How far we have come! how far we have come since the days when we thought that gosanke was simply a Japanese asthetics. It is about rarity. And fine mutation expression is indeed rare- in nature and in the show ring.
    JR

  6. #36
    Sansai Si Van Nguyen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Orange County, Southern California
    Posts
    183
    I am really enjoying this thread. Thanks! Keep it going! The genetic science is interesting to me too, because I studied a little bit about gold fish breeding in college in the 80's.
    My question for the experts is: How is the color genes linked to the sex genes?

  7. #37
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Good Morning Si Van,

    There is no question that certain traits in koi are sex linked. Coloring and skin type for example are heavily sex linked.
    In the old days, the breeders were very comfortable with the notion that body and pattern were linked to the oyagoi male and female. And this assumption persists to this day. But honestly, since multiple males are used to get the maximum production from eggs, it is hard to take the assumption too seriously. In the end, the culling is as responsible for the outcome of the 'keepers' as is the domination of who contributed color and who contributed pattern.
    JR

  8. #38
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    1,087
    pattern is more complicated than sex linkage. For several years now I have been testing the idea (one male with one female) and I find no evidence of sex linkage. Consider this as evidence - If pattern were sex linked, one could assume that the number of tanchos produced in a spawn would be increased by always using male tanchos. Yet, the frequency of tanchos within a spawn remains low.

    With pattern, there is a sliding scale of incomplete dominance. Some patterns occur more often than others - generally those that get closer to a full body coverage and have an appearance close to what a wild carp looks like. What we call refinement has its basis in the gene frequency expression within the spawn. The more refined, the less the penetrance within the spawn. Further, there is no one gene doing the phenotype thing but a combination of linked genes and this is where fun of the diversity within a spawn begins.

  9. #39
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    I think what you're seeing and experiencing is a two dimensional challenge/ explanation;

    there is the issue of the entire gene pool trying to regress ( atavism) as all mutation recessive genes have a tendency to do. In this tug of war, you see the piebald pattern giving way to the wild type pattern orientation of full color on top and slighly lighter color on bottom below the lateral line. The Japanese talk about this often as a wild type or unrefined pattern ( the term they most often use) . examples of this would be inazuma pattern or the classic one step kohaku male. thing about this-- ever notice how much more inazuma males there are then inazuma females? Makes one think??

    The second dimension of this subject is the changing formation of pieald pattern. there is definitely a tendency in the well bred fish to see a lot of two, three and four step piebalds. This is a far cry from the very old days when kohaku could just have 'spots' of beni ( not real plates) and often many on the belly and below the lateral line. Breeding has refined that more to a tamer piebald pattern. And now these same piebald patterns can be repeated over and over in lines with not much regard to sex. This atavistic tendency does seem to be sex linked ( unless culling is making of that conclusion)?

    So to bring this all home, atavism wants the pattern to regress, and become bigger and more covering. And inbreeding of the mutation for plate patterns tends to be able to be repeated with no real regard to sex linkage.
    Best wishes of a health and happy New Year Bradley, JR

  10. #40
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Davenport, Oklahoma
    Posts
    6,726
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    ...What we call refinement has its basis in the gene frequency expression within the spawn. The more refined, the less the penetrance within the spawn. Further, there is no one gene doing the phenotype thing but a combination of linked genes and this is where fun of the diversity within a spawn begins.
    I smell a good teaching ramble blowing in the wind of these observations

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. California Drought in full effect....
    By aquitori in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 02-03-2014, 02:55 PM
  2. Mythbusted - no full moon required
    By mrbradleybradley in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-06-2010, 11:42 AM
  3. Western Cape Koi Show - South Africa
    By Erns in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 05-28-2009, 02:58 AM
  4. Replies: 38
    Last Post: 03-25-2007, 01:13 PM
  5. M4.9 quake jolts western Japan
    By dick benbow in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-27-2005, 01:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com