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Thread: attempting to evaluate a tosai---

  1. #11
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    And yes, I still remember the endless parade of kawari and kujaku you were stuck on for so long! So now you know WHY kujaku is an exercise in heart break! They tarnish, the loose luster and they grow chubby! LOls. The kujaku is greatly improved these days with the addition of kohaku. But still, the genes are the genes and kujaku is a fish for today. The best that variety can do is HOLD a look for as long as possible. Don't get me wrong, a good one is a thing of great beauty ( especially the reds with delicate black netting). But in the long term they are heart aches.

    JR

    There is a long list of Varieties I'm just not willing to drop a lot of money on because of the lack of Shelf Life. Besides Kujaku, Goshiki come's to mind.

  2. #12
    Nisai
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    There is that word tategoi. One mans tategoi is another mans tateshita. Don't you agree that sometimes tategoi to a breeder is tategoi because that breeder knows what his fish normally do for him in his Mud pond. Sometimes taking those fish away from that breeder in your concrete does not translate.
    tategoi does not mean "will become a good fish" but has more of a potential to become a good fish than another. Even when breeders sort their fish, all their picks do not come out well.
    This is where you have do do your homework and know not only how the different breeders fish develop but also what fish do better in your pond.

  3. #13
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    That will be a great game to see. I think they have gotten their act together finally.

    I still like kujaku...lol. I saw one in an old nichirin, I think 2005. It was 90cm and awesome. THAT is the one I need to find. My interest in shiny koi was really a matter of access. 5 minutes from my home is one of Blackwater creeks biggest dealers. Blackwater does certain varieties very well. Nice kumonryu, kikokuryu, doitsu sanke, shusui, hariwake, ogons and chagoi. But, gosanke is not their best thing. So, when you see tons of shiny koi every week, the occasional good one ends up in your pond. As far as my bigger purchases...only made 3 this year. A shiro utsuri from Sekko, Sanke and a Showa. How good my eye has become will be decided by a judge next season. Hopefully, I won't embarrass myself.


    If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    Brutus, for you to think about---

    We have seen great progress in American bred koi. They ae head and shoulders above what they were when our best were produced in Arkansas and Florida, and the grade was very very very bad.

    But koi in America are still not up to the standard of most Japanese koi.

    how can we know this? Well one way is by the progress of American koi as they grow ( or don't grow). America can produce a very nice looking tosai now. But can these fish hold together after the thord and fourth year? I submit that we here in the USA still struggle with fish that look as good at age four as they did at age one.

    You have identified breeds that are now breeds. That is, they are hybrids of two breeds or basic luster rich varieties that tend to loose luster with age. All health baby koi show a nice sheen and the hikari types shine well. But this is a transitional trait in the breeds themselves, let along USA short shelf life fish.
    I praise houses like Blue Ridge for supplying the hobbyists with good sound baby stock. But we must not be dillusional as hobbyists. The Japanese own the koi market when it comes to high class koi.
    So far, only Matt McCann and Scott Purdin have high class stock that holds in at age three and four. JR

  5. #15
    Nisai
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Brutus, for you to think about---

    We have seen great progress in American bred koi. They ae head and shoulders above what they were when our best were produced in Arkansas and Florida, and the grade was very very very bad.

    But koi in America are still not up to the standard of most Japanese koi.

    how can we know this? Well one way is by the progress of American koi as they grow ( or don't grow). America can produce a very nice looking tosai now. But can these fish hold together after the thord and fourth year? I submit that we here in the USA still struggle with fish that look as good at age four as they did at age one.

    You have identified breeds that are now breeds. That is, they are hybrids of two breeds or basic luster rich varieties that tend to loose luster with age. All health baby koi show a nice sheen and the hikari types shine well. But this is a transitional trait in the breeds themselves, let along USA short shelf life fish.
    I praise houses like Blue Ridge for supplying the hobbyists with good sound baby stock. But we must not be dillusional as hobbyists. The Japanese own the koi market when it comes to high class koi.
    So far, only Matt McCann and Scott Purdin have high class stock that holds in at age three and four. JR
    I think the future in American hobby is for high class Japanese two year olds being sold and then kept in mud ponds the caliber of Matt;s or Purdin's. So we get good size on Japanese genetics.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koidoc View Post
    I think the future in American hobby is for high class Japanese two year olds being sold and then kept in mud ponds the caliber of Matt;s or Purdin's. So we get good size on Japanese genetics.
    Good thought, but I do not believe the cost of maintaining bio-security would be accepted by enough hobbyists to support the endeavor.

  7. #17
    Nisai
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    It could be set up like Kodamas operation where imports are seperated by breeder when they come in for quarantine. After quarantine they could be mixed. Just like in Japan females only at owners risk. Only fish from dealer allowed in. No bring backs. I am not sure but I think Kodama may already have the service but maybe not have the growth rates of Matt and Scott. My dream would be to have a nice Japanese fish in a mud pond I could visit each year for harvest and decide to take home or leave.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    My kujaku has been peaking for several years but don't ask me about the atmosphere.

  9. #19
    Oyagoi
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    Quote Originally Posted by koidoc View Post
    I think the future in American hobby is for high class Japanese two year olds being sold and then kept in mud ponds the caliber of Matt;s or Purdin's. So we get good size on Japanese genetics.
    I know Koi Acres as been building mud ponds again this fall.so they could be a Japanese importer with mud ponds.

  10. #20
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Brutus, for you to think about---

    We have seen great progress in American bred koi. They ae head and shoulders above what they were when our best were produced in Arkansas and Florida, and the grade was very very very bad.

    But koi in America are still not up to the standard of most Japanese koi.

    how can we know this? Well one way is by the progress of American koi as they grow ( or don't grow). America can produce a very nice looking tosai now. But can these fish hold together after the thord and fourth year? I submit that we here in the USA still struggle with fish that look as good at age four as they did at age one.

    You have identified breeds that are now breeds. That is, they are hybrids of two breeds or basic luster rich varieties that tend to loose luster with age. All health baby koi show a nice sheen and the hikari types shine well. But this is a transitional trait in the breeds themselves, let along USA short shelf life fish.
    I praise houses like Blue Ridge for supplying the hobbyists with good sound baby stock. But we must not be dillusional as hobbyists. The Japanese own the koi market when it comes to high class koi.
    So far, only Matt McCann and Scott Purdin have high class stock that holds in at age three and four. JR
    It is all very true. I just purchased a 27in female showa from Purdin this season. Looking for your dollar buddy. A few others are doing well also. I think Brady and Rich R. are also breeding very well. The American breeders will keep improving...the sky is the limit. A 90 cm gosanke of great quality will happen, it is just a question of who and when. I also think some Japanese breeders will have interests in American koi farms in the future. I know Suda has their association with Blackwater creek. I think that it may be for financial reasons...but, we will all benefit from it. The Japanese may own the high class koi market...but, wouldn't it be interesting to see them expand overseas? To see top Dainichi Oyagoi used for breeding in the U.S. would be very exciting. With $$$ all things are possible. What is your opinion of this possibility JR?

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