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Thread: How to ruin a good show koi

  1. #21
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    7,642
    Low oxygen is a stress factor as is high temperature and low temperature for that matter. This is a case of G.A.S. and not the same long term physiological effect we are talking about here. The 'biological clock' is a dominating force in lower forms of life like fish and reptiles.
    Suggested reading:

    Any scientfic article discussing the endocrine system, the pituitary and the priming of reproductive system in carp or any lower form of life, for that matter.
    One basic truth ( only koi hobbyists seem to resist this science for some unknown reason) is that in lower forms ( birds, fish, reptiles) their physiology is step to and intimately linked to light and temperature cues.
    All of migration, breeding, diet etc is linked to the light and warmth/cold of their environment.
    Secondly, beyond the prime triggers of duration of light in a day, intensity of light and temperature triggers which effect cold blooded physiology directly and indirectly as a trigger--
    There is the effect these things have the very environment the fish live in. Food can become more or less available. and the mix of animal protein and plant protein will shift as availability of each group changes. insects and lower forms have a boom bust existance as do other soures of 'stage' proteins. Plants slow growth and all but disappear in some temperate areas.
    This is both a survival technique created over 40,000 years and also a life style. It is not that the carp is waiting for a tropical environment to come to it's region and rescue it from the cold. It is the way an animal is moulded to it's environment and becomes both an expert at survival in those terms presented and also a slave to the genetoc code that allows it physiology to develop to both survive and then NEED this environment. Lest the individual fails just as it's forunners failed when the ice age subsided. JR

  2. #22
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    41
    We have chillers made specifically as well as those modified from air con compressors. i know that for a covered 30 ton pond we need a 4HP unit running 6-8 hrs daily to maintain 24C. IMHO not efficient on running cost. Dont know of anyone running at 19C(66F) let alone running for seasonal trigger. i am hopeful that those from my region already using a chiller would use it for this purpose too. Esp if coming from you both in Bito.

    JR , read somewhere you're writing a book ? Any truth? If so let me book a copy of your ramblings .

    ts

  3. #23
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    Mar 2009
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    Singapore
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    720
    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Interesting. I know that a chiller for koi keepers and quite a cost to buy, install and run. I wonder if a chiller could be run on solar panels? Now THAT would be interesting for some ambitious Asian dealer!!
    Chillers of course are used regardly at public aquariums and big reef systems as the need for intense light and high circulation pumps has lead to very hot water temperatures. And so chillers are needed to bring temps down. In other cases, the species kept NEEDS cool water to survive and so chillers are a standard piece of equipment.

    So here's the JR challenge ( maybe I can include this in the magazine I write for in South East Asian)?

    Lets see if someone can get a chiller to run on a generator hooked to solar panels and lets see if cooling the pond down ( goal is 65 F) for just 6 weeks is an affordable idea. This could do wonders for thet washed out look that many tropical koi get after age five. And might save the margins of color plates from unraveling as they tend to do with hot kept koi. JR
    Good Morning Brother Jim

    Solar Panels is expensive in Singapore or anywhere in Asia ... The initial cost of installation is higher than the electrical tarrif paid for 30 years .. that's how the maths worked out here .. .

    Pond Chillers ( designed for ponds ) with titanium coils can last a good 5 years and it cost about USD 3k for a 3HP unit ,which is meant to churn out 6 tonnes of chilled water ( 16 deg Celcius ) an hour .Using a proper manufactured chiller meant for ponds , Pond Water temperature fluctuate only 0.4 deg celsius .

    The weather , environment setting , placement & installation of each Pond Design will determine the running cost of the pond chillers here . I installed 2 units of the 3HP for each of my pond and this cut down electrical consumption due to reduction in comingling time . Costs 800 bucks on electrical tarrifs to run 6 units of such chillers and keep water temperature comfortably between 22-24 deg celcius .

    In quarantine rooms , given time , we can air conditioned the room temperature to bring water temperature down to a comfortable 20 deg Celsius or even 18 if needed to . It's okay for the chilled ponds in the air conditioned room to even stay at 16 deg celcius , but not water temp at 16 deg C for an out-door pond due temperature differences between the chilled pond temperature and atmospheric temperature of 30 deg C and above . This temperature difference of 15 to 20 deg C between water temp and the atmospheric temprature can bring about a " scorching sensation " to the fishes each time any parts of their body touches the surface air .

    Environmental setting is crucial for an out-door chilled pond in my region . Most in Asia here install Sail Shades for aesthetic reasons or full overhead covers or roof to provide a cooler atmospheric temperature over their ponds . There"s just too many heat source we identified for a chilled pond to be running here , and Bakki Showers in the wrong place can be one bad heat source for our chilled pond here . Most shaded ponds here in our region runs between 26 deg C to 28 Deg Celsius without chillers , while those unshaded ponds run with a much higher water temp .

    Hope this provide you with some insight as you prepare your book for the South East Asians ...

    David
    Last edited by DavidSoon; 01-06-2012 at 09:38 PM.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    7,642
    Well two thoughts or reactions here;

    The koi hobby IS expensive. Everything from the pond construction ( I can't believe the numbers I'm getting on my new pond construction plans) and the fish themselves not to mention the filters, nets ect.
    When you think about it, even if you have a collection of inexpensive koi ( $500 each) you tend to have some 18 -20 of them. That's 9K! If you're really hooked then 12 koi at $5 k each is SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!
    So cost associated with keeping them alive and looking good is relative and in a sense, an insurance policy.

    Secondly, it can be done cheaper. I have, in the past, used portable freezers with stainless steel tubing coiled inside ( tapped the sides and epoxy-ed the drill holes). The water was circulated from a 600 gallon aquarium and into the freezer so that heat was transferred out and chilling was transferred in the passing water. It really is the same as heating water in the west that we do with a heat exchanger of one type or another. This is a pretty cheap method of chilling a body of water.

    Things to consider. Best, JR

  5. #25
    Nisai
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    66
    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Well two thoughts or reactions here;

    The koi hobby IS expensive. Everything from the pond construction ( I can't believe the numbers I'm getting on my new pond construction plans) and the fish themselves not to mention the filters, nets ect.
    When you think about it, even if you have a collection of inexpensive koi ( $500 each) you tend to have some 18 -20 of them. That's 9K! If you're really hooked then 12 koi at $5 k each is SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!
    So cost associated with keeping them alive and looking good is relative and in a sense, an insurance policy.

    Secondly, it can be done cheaper. I have, in the past, used portable freezers with stainless steel tubing coiled inside ( tapped the sides and epoxy-ed the drill holes). The water was circulated from a 600 gallon aquarium and into the freezer so that heat was transferred out and chilling was transferred in the passing water. It really is the same as heating water in the west that we do with a heat exchanger of one type or another. This is a pretty cheap method of chilling a body of water.

    Things to consider. Best, JR
    Very good point Jim. People have to know that Koi Keeping properly is expensive. We are not talking about hair curlers in a 55 gal drum doing the trick for 30 koi here.
    I found it always funny when people would tell me that a heater was too expensive for the winter. I had one when I was outside. Maybe ran about $5000 for the heater and some gas expense for the season. I stopped mysteriously losing koi over the winter or having to go through the Aeromonas curve in the Spring. Fish came out cleaner. So what is the price of saving one $5000 koi each winter or even just once.
    Better to spend $60,000 on the pond and $3000 on the Koi then $3000 on the pond and $60,000 on the koi.
    Hey Jim when you are done with the pond let me know if you need an instant show quality koi collection cheap. I can sell you my whole Koi Collection and filtration system for pennies on the dollar. All for sale now.

  6. #26
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    7,642
    Morning Art, about to head to my bud's tropical fish store to give back some marine plants, freshwater plants ( trimmed the landscape!) along with a few really nasty damsels that have just gotten too big and are dominating species they should normally move out of the way for, -- and a trio of siamese algae eaters that have gotten so big that they are eating endler fry and chasing my magnificant 50 plus strong school of cardinals ( even within an 8 foot long well planted Amano style aquarium).
    I'm also between ponds with the outdoor pond filled last fall and the indoor dismantled a few months ago. My last three koi are living in a garage at the beach! So more koi is the last thing I need! If they are still available next summer, I'll be interested in at least a few. But my focus will be on Japanese Nisei at that point-- so not interested in anything too big or beyond yonsai.

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