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Thread: Inheritance of long fins in koi

  1. #11
    Oyagoi ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Boris is a nice guy and very determined to make a contribution in koi genetics. If you recall he wanted to do a presentation at the last AKCA seminar. A study of the G Mendel's classic dominate/recessive traits on Kokahu pattern to map the % of white and red as a gene code. A little out there but fun to read.
    The references in this one are a bit weak. TFH and Tetra? And a manual published by a hobbyist in 1981? And one reference from Rinko! I know the article its a good'n. I do like the reference to the danio though as it is very well studied.
    the most that can be drawn from this study is the dominate recessive rating of hypertrophy. JR
    I think hobbyist will also get a sense of what a scientific study is suppose to look like and some will find the details of breeding (like injecting with carp pituitary extract) informative.
    I found the information about the fertilized eggs being treated with an 8:1 water-cow milk mixture interesting.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    Me too! JR

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Besides, if breeding sanke is a way to loose money then breeding long fins is a quicker way to loose money! As longfins have no real value the price ceiling is very much set. Not unlike feeder fish. JR
    ?? True that the price ceiling is set... and fairly low, but longfins are produced because they can be sold to the general market more readily than 'orange and white goldfish'. Of course, there is no need for research for that market. [Longfin barbs, white clouds, etc. are really plain awful, but they sell.)

  4. #14
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    There is something about this that is nagging at me. The inheritance appears to me to be modified by crossing rather than true to form.

    Observing these offspring they appear to be "large" finned, but not the full blown "Indonesian LFLF" type (with flowing gossamer wings).

    That bears out my own experiences with crossing Indonesian type LF with Standard finned Koi. None of the offspring developed the full "flowing" membrane that extends well beyond the tips of the rays and trail behind the main body of the finnage. In our case, the male Oyagoi was a very "full finned" Indonesian type, with a tail fin that was nearly as long as his frame and the dorsal and pec fins matched that trait completely.

    Amomg the offspring from his crosses some carried oversized "fans" on the tail, dorsal, and pec fins, but none demonstrated the free flowing membrane extension. An "elongated" fan with a pointed tip was most common, with the degree of finnage inheritance displayed also being reflected in the body conformation being more "bowling pin", which is the common Indonesian type.

    I say all of this to illustrate the "inheritance by degrees" rather than "true to form" in reproducing the original. The offspring are "modified" by both parents which does not produce the same result as true Dominance.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  5. #15
    Daihonmei
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    Hi Larry, there is no question that 'longfins' come in several different types or looks. Personally I like the 'dragon' look which is a long flowing and ragged look. I like it because it also goes nicely with the other effects of hypertrophy which are-- elongated barbels.
    Unfortunately ( and back in the 1980s I was one of them) we wished Indonesian longfins looked more like koi as far as varieties were concerned-- so the kohaku of today in a hypertrophic specimen has reduced whisker size as well as very goldfish like flowing fins. I remember when it hit me like a ton of bricks that longfins don't look as good when they are 'good specimen' kohaku! It seems that the kawari types and solids are the most impressive individuals as the color goes better with the ' look of the dragon' ( long whiskers and ragged finnage) . The proof I always enter ( and I know you have heard this before) is that the black nishikigoi is a very boring and easily over looked koi that isn't even entered in koi shows. But an all black 'longfin' in the 'dragon' version, is an awesome sight! this leads even the dullest mind to begin to realize that the finnage leaves us with an entirely different impression of what a longfin and a nishikigoi should be like.

    I can tell you that I have seen on more than one ocassion at a koi show, individuals with 'slightly' elongated fins ( more than just normal male extended fins) that are either partly hypertrophic. So the conclusion that dominance is clear is not quite right or we would not see these blended or partial looks.
    the key by the way is to determine if the fins are just large or elongated. That is determined by the ray structure of the fin. JR

  6. #16
    Nisai
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    I would like to comment last PapaBear’s and JasPR’s posts. This study described a gene which controls appearance of long fins. But it does not mean that other factors cannot influence the expression of this gene. There is saying in genetics that genotype is not combination of genes but ‘norm of reaction’. It means that individual with certain genotype develops certain phenotype under certain environmental conditions. If conditions will change phenotype will be different. It is known that the fin length in long-fin koi is dependent on environmental conditions. If fish grow fast the elongation of fins will be not so profound. I would not compare relative fin length in butterfly koi from the same progeny raised in different ponds or tanks. Also with age fins in butterfly koi become well-developed. Practically in order to compare expression of ‘long fin’ gene we should compare fish of the same age raised at the same (or similar) conditions. It is especially difficult to compare several generations (parents and offspring).

    There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.

  7. #17
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BorG View Post

    There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.
    this description is reflected in many phenotpic expressions in patterned koi

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by BorG View Post
    I would like to comment last PapaBear’s and JasPR’s posts. This study described a gene which controls appearance of long fins. But it does not mean that other factors cannot influence the expression of this gene. There is saying in genetics that genotype is not combination of genes but ‘norm of reaction’. It means that individual with certain genotype develops certain phenotype under certain environmental conditions. If conditions will change phenotype will be different. It is known that the fin length in long-fin koi is dependent on environmental conditions. If fish grow fast the elongation of fins will be not so profound. I would not compare relative fin length in butterfly koi from the same progeny raised in different ponds or tanks. Also with age fins in butterfly koi become well-developed. Practically in order to compare expression of ‘long fin’ gene we should compare fish of the same age raised at the same (or similar) conditions. It is especially difficult to compare several generations (parents and offspring).

    There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.
    Good Morning Boris, certainly what you say is true. As demonstrated in danio and barb domestic bred species, hypertrophy is a common event in this family of fishes. And if one looks at the different strains and lines of the simple zebra danio you will see 'styles' of hypertrophy. Some zebra danio showing wide, long fins and others carrying a more ragged look with lobes within the carriage.
    But I have seen intermediate finnage forms in koi- a intermediate expression of the gene code for hypertrophy.
    And I want to clarify the statement regarding size and length--- there are true koi with natural bodies and fins but fins of a very large size- they are within the dimensions of the body which is also large. Some female jumbois for instance have amazingly large ( in judging we use the term 'tall' fins and they are also very wide.) But the proportions are normal for the wild type fish body. I think you referenced the Rinko magazine that carries the ZNA standard for judging. As I said before, hypertrophy is a normal sport found in koi and is one of those traits that is considered a deformity ( or at least was for generations) and is destryoed along with fish showing facial and other finnage abnormalities. So the ZNA which runs shows fundamentally like a soundness live stock show, have set up a rational regarding disqualification of hypertrophy as per the LENGTH of the tail in relationship to the body. JR

  9. #19
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BorG View Post
    I would like to comment last PapaBear’s and JasPR’s posts. This study described a gene which controls appearance of long fins. But it does not mean that other factors cannot influence the expression of this gene. There is saying in genetics that genotype is not combination of genes but ‘norm of reaction’. It means that individual with certain genotype develops certain phenotype under certain environmental conditions. If conditions will change phenotype will be different. It is known that the fin length in long-fin koi is dependent on environmental conditions. If fish grow fast the elongation of fins will be not so profound. I would not compare relative fin length in butterfly koi from the same progeny raised in different ponds or tanks. Also with age fins in butterfly koi become well-developed. Practically in order to compare expression of ‘long fin’ gene we should compare fish of the same age raised at the same (or similar) conditions. It is especially difficult to compare several generations (parents and offspring).

    There is another possible factor (besides environmental conditions) which can influence gene expression. Expression of main gene can be influenced by many so called “genes modifiers”. Fish with the same genotype relative to major gene (for example LfLf) nevertheless show variability with regard to relative fin length, which is caused by action of genes modifiers. Theoretically it is possible by selection either increase or diminish expression of main gene.
    And therein lies a great deal of the "rub" if you will.
    The expression of Hypertrophy is just as easily influenced by water temperature and chemistry during the embryonic stage and early growth period after hatching as from the base genotype at the moment of fertilization. There mere fact that a normal genotype can mutate due to external influences during development complicates the entire "if-then" scenario for predicting progeny outcomes. You mention "selection" as a facilitator for controlling the expression rate of the main gene, which is absolutly true. After all, it was "environmental selection" (warm, stagnant water) that likely produced the original hypertrophic expression in the first place.

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    Ya know I was thinking------- ( always a dangerous idea!) --------


    If you look back on all the references and all the armchair theories of WHERE longfin carp came from, you begin to see two assumptions emerge;

    a) that the appearance of longfin carp was a singular event

    b) that longfins can be traced to that single source.


    As regards a) We once had three theories that continue to haunt the myth surrounding longfin. The first is that some isolated couple breeding goldfish in the Pacific Northwest created longfins from goldfish and koi! Innocent enough, probably a real story and an honest extrapolation of a single event but hardly THE source for longfins as longfins are shipped in from all over the world. The second theory is that a single Japanese breeder using Indonesian longfins to bring size and vigor into his koi ( a varitaion of this is that the Japanese emperor ordered it and also that the nishikigoi breeding station came up with some hybrids from the emperor's Indonesian sources), created the longfin. Again, fact based but not THE source. We also have documented ( TFH publications) the importation of Blue Ridge domestic koi and goldfish producer as THE source of longfins in America-- again factual, close but no cigar. No cigar simply because the imports had to come from somewhere where there were more than just the few!

    Well we've come a long way in this story and all should now know and accept that hypertrophy ( spontaneous mutation that causes organs or characteristics to become elongated) is common in fish family we are talking about.
    Building on this spontaneous sport occurance, it is reasonable to accept that the strain of carp in Indonesia that showed hypertrophy ( long fins) was common and established by the 1980s. There is no doubt that the Japanese got an indonesian strain of longfin carp from Indonesia. And it may be that Blue Ridge's wholesale tropical fish exporter had indonsian longfin carp as well as the Chinese tropical fish trade has been well established since 1960s and used poorer southern countries for sources and grow out. But certainly, there is more than one story regarding longfin carp.
    Indonesia is blessed with lots of water! And feral as well as domesticated carp live in captive and wild conditions. Indeed there are natural sub species of common carp throughout south east Asian and lots of trading for centuries to further mess up a nice and neat separation between wild, feral and true domestic strains.
    And unlike the unique and one in a million chance of other countries producing nishikigoi ( a very complex yet consentrated mutation gene pool) , simple hypertrophy is not hard to produce in any country of the world. And also in the wild especially amongst feral ( once domestic) strains that already have this gene concentrated. Catching them then with other native tropical species is certainly possible.
    Because 'longfin carp' come in so many distinct looks and shapes-- it is very likely that longfin carp are a complex of types and from multiple sources. This does not mean however that there are not prototype strains common in ornamental distribution chains.
    I personally liked the first imports to Blue Ridge. While the Japanese described the carp longfins into Japan as large brown/grey ugly food shaped bodies of great height and vigor and with long flowing fins, the finglerings of Blue ridge were long and with the long whiskers that made the fish look very exotic- they also had large striking eyes with hypertrophy appointments at the nostrils-- true dragon look.
    Finally the exporters of Thailand and Hong kong send over a longfin with a very short and globe shaped body ( a lot like a goldfish) and with barbels but rather short barbels for a longfin.
    In all these cases, the most stunning examples are the all black, all silver, all yellow and kawari type longfin carp of the original Indonesia import look. A unique strain that really deserves the name Dragon carp. What a shame that we tried to make them look like Nishikigoi with long fins--a real left turn down a dead end. how great would it be if someone had the vision of the longfin carp as the dragon carp-- a long sleek kawari with long flowing barbels ( all four as a standard) and long flowing fins that made teh fish look like the chinese dragons of folklore. Now THAT would be something!! In black, blue, red, silver and brown and grey, yellow and grey and black and white.. very cool! JR

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