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Thread: 'Overactive' biological ?

  1. #21
    Daihonmei
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    So I'm sure that my last post will have KONG surfing the net for the next 12 hours trying to come up with something to defend this contradiction---


    BUT, if I lived in Florida, and I added enough salt to my Koi pond to bring the SG to 1023 and filled the pond with coral rubble chucks the size of soft balls, basket balls and golf balls, and then added 300 damsels to this 5000 gallon pond, added inpond circulation etc. I'm sure they would do great! ( assumming no frost in winter!).
    BUt if I added lava rock to the same pond, added freshwater and put in ten adult koi and put inpond circulation in-- I would have chronic aeromonas infections and general deaths over the next ten months!
    AND if I cut off KONGs circulation right now and added an inpond circulation in his pond and depended on an empty pond with nitrification walls ( good lord) they'd be sick in a month and likely dead in two or three.

    Reasons? Different species produce different levels of waste in different amounts based on size and scale of the system. Big species like koi produce a huge amount of waste and pass water through and this results in a weak urine/water 24X7. Saltwater fish retain water -- desperately . And Damsels for those that don't know the species, are tiny fish measuring at most 2 1/2 inches in most popular species. even 300 of them is not the biomass of one koi!

    In addition, as the organics build, the environment begins to shift from aerobic to anaerobic. This the point of biofouling to the extreme. This creates different blooms of bacteria and algaes and possibly green water.

    So don't try this at home! Your pond walls can not process the waste of 12 koi! And once the walls become organic, the algaes will crowd out your bacterial film ( competitive exclusion) and reduce the surface available to the bacteria. In the dedicated biofilter however, the ammonia is delived right to the media surface and typically not in full sunlight ( dark is best) where algae grows. The biofilter, unlike the pond walls has massive space per CUBIC square yard- not per square yard ( that is a boo boo in Kongs cut and paste research).

    And finally in Kong's explanation regarding TTs - he states that lIve rock has more area than a TT-- that depends on the amount of the rock and the height of the TT and media used!
    And he states that TTs compete with live rock. KONG needs to study more. Live rock is a combination for nitrification, denitrification and algae ( Coraline ) water conditioning. It is a balanced system when done well. A TT is a trapping detritus unit with bioballs and they tend to turn out MORE nitrogen/nitrate per square inch that live rock does. And ALL of this conversation has to be taken with the understanding that this is in a low low load setting. IF kong gets his first marine system up and adds fish and his live rock might be inadequate-- these type of live rock driven systems can NOT be loaded as a fish tank is. The fad of mini tanks or is reckless one if in the hands of a beginner,. they need to have very low loads and reef inverts should be the dominate form with a fish or two for movement, nothing more. JR

  2. #22
    Daihonmei
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    Looks like this thread has run its course so I'll finish by saying, Now that we have a concept of an overactive biofilter to go on, and the also the idea that a biofilter is a necessary evil in that we must have it to keep our koi alive, but after that, it is a contributor to water quality deterioration.

    In a closed system we must therefore do water changes and decide on amount and schedule to keep up with the pace of water deterioration and exhaustion. The idea is always to as much as it takes to keep the baseline readings of pollution factors at or near zero. IF one finds that this is not possible or that it takes such large amounts and frequency of water changes that the fish are actually starting to look stressed and that water is starting to look raw and murky, then something has to be addressed.

    The most obvious is the number of fish per gallon and also the number of fish in relationship to the ponds surface area. Ironically, if you have a 'good pond' environment and the fish have grown significantly, you might be on your way to a problem that never existed before. It is so early to think of koi growth in terms of length. But it is weight and girth that dive the problems of pollution.
    And next is food and feeding. Feeding ten times a day is obvious abuse of a system. But also what you feed and when you feed matter. Food must be regulated to seasons in type and amount and time of day. And water should be oberved ( foam and clarity) when feeding protein foods.


    Models in aquaculture, that quote weight of fish and pounds of food are worthless in koi ponds! This is because we feed our koi all theur lives and in different seasons and with different formulas. The idea that things could be so simplistic as weight and pounds is to miss the real life challenges of a pond.
    I could have 6 fish in an established 6000 gallon pond and could have added a new fsh every four months until I got to a total of 12. The biofilter expanded as each bump came in the ammonia produced by a new member. I would never have seen an ammonia spike or a nitrite stall. Just an increase in the natural ambient nitrAte reading between water changes. Shorter time intervals between water changes of a slightly larger water change for compensation. And I'm back to a baseline reading of 5 ppm on nitrate and find it easy to support.

    In a second scenerio , I start with 6 koi in a 6000 gallon pond but add the second 6 to bring it to 12 all at the same time. The ammonia spike is seen and nitrite might be visible for a brief time.
    In a third scenario, I do the above again but it is a brand new pond-- now ammonia rises even higher and I have a nagging nitrite reading and no real NitrAte level to speak of ??

    The point is, pounds per weight is for aquaculture and makes certain assumptions or ignores some of these real life pond variables.

    A word to the wise--- JR

  3. #23
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I think I know what a trickle tower is and I think the term Bakki Shower is misused in some DIY Koi pond filter threads.

    Can somebody explain the difference between a shower filter and a wet/dry bio-flter? Or are they the same when dealing with Koi pond filtration?

    In a nut shell. Nobody understands exactly what chemical reactions occur in any of the biofilters. Nobody. So it allows for speculation and the "know it alls" to come out of the woods with their twists and statements and why this works best and too much of this will do that and my filter is best so on. The end of the day they are all dumping water to reduce Nitrates. Makes you wonder.
    I was listening to a lecture tape of Charles Delbeek, assistant curator of the Steinhart Aquarium at the time. One unbelievable facility with every piece of equipment known to man. Delbeek has three degrees in Biology, Zoology and Education. So they send this expert to collect the most wanted coral in the World to grow in this aquarium in California. Brings it all back and it mostly dies. Asked why did it do so poorly in his facility...his reply "we are still trying to figure it out....not sure what the problem is."

  4. #24
    Daihonmei
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    [QUOTE=kingkong;194230] "In a nut shell. Nobody understands exactly what chemical reactions occur in any of the biofilters. Nobody."- Sensei KONG


    What are you nuts ( from your nut shell? ) , Sensei?? Of course we understand what chemcial reactions occur in biofilters?? It has been studied to death since the 1900s! Good grief!
    The trouble is, it was mostly 'in the lab' until recent years. The study of nitrification and the cell is documented. And that information is repeated over and over in pop literature. Trouble is when you release that cell into the outside world with other competing species the conversation gets more complicated. In the 1990s a new breed of microbiolist started to flood the standard lab and agriculture ( yes agriculture) studies with a new look at bacteria in the world-- ecology micro biology. This fleshed out the idea of bacteria as part of an ecosystem and how it spreads, survives, evolves etc. The idea of bacteria following genetic code for survival but adapting and changing to meet environmental demand is profound. So, as an example, the idea that individual cells signal one another chemically and begin to build a matrix in which to live and that they actively import and reject other bacterial species based on their value to the matrix is nothing short of fascinating. And the idea that their genetic code orders a certain shape to the matrix but when environmental factors that make that shape impossible ( current, space etc) The cells adapt and a new shape is formed and the populations attach in difefrent areas within the film/matrix.
    The idea that no one has a clue as to the chemcial reaction is uninformed. The charge in the matrix, on the bacteria, the amount of oxygen it takes to convert every molecule of ammonia, is all well measured and understood. The study of the matrix as a species living amongst other species is even becoming better and better detailed as time goes by.
    If you like, I can do a Utube on this post if it helps? JR

  5. #25
    Daihonmei
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    I wanted to add this to the last post as something to think about--

    Today microbiologists have technology they never had before. This includes probes that are 1/10 the thickness of a human hair in which they can measure ORP, oxygen, pH of small sections of a wild biofilm. NOW that is amazing! In those studies they gave found that local conditions exist in a biofilm! One area can have a pH of 6.5 and another of 7.4. And oxygen can be lacking in one area and ambient in general environmental range in another. This is huge as it redefines how we used to think about the relationship and location of nitrfication vs denitrification. In the past we could only measure mass output of such reactions. But now we can get right inside the biofilm and measure the localized denitrification activity within the nitrifying bed! remarkable. And unlike the old model of absolute deadliness of denitrification, it seems that pockets of the same can exist next to ( micro cms away) nitrification. the key to that is balance however.
    In the matrix there are 'garbage removing' bacteria, predators of nitrifying bacteria cells. 'undertakers' and supporting cast members. Amazing stuff. JR

  6. #26
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    with permission;



    I first saw this in a KHA Filtration pdf under "Complexity of Biofilms".

  7. #27
    Daihonmei
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    Very good. ( although there is one error in that chart as it pertains to Nitrifiers, can you find it?)

    And to further stick a pin in the 'unknown' Sensei Kong reference, in the ornamental fish hobbies we often describe nitrifying activity as the bacteria 'eating' the ammonia molecules. That is fine as imagery but it is not accurate as far as the biochemical reaction. Bacteria actually use the ammonia molecule and oxygen to create an oxidation reaction that results in the formation of ATP.
    The matrix houses many form of bacteria, fungi, algae, protozoa and viruses. A healthy film is diverse-- but a health film is dominated by aerobic species/ autotrophic nitrifiers. Chemiosmosis is also a key to this biochemical world. JR

  8. #28
    Daihonmei
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    Kong, I have been 'omnipresent' on YOUR thread and I realized that even though you don't play fair or show good sportsmanship in 'our chats', it doesn't mean I should do the same or dominate your thread with retorts. I have answered every one of your questions and you have answered zero of my questions- zero. I want you to know that the driving force for me was not to pull your pants down in public- but rather to set the record straight as your butchered concept after concept and thought after thought. So I'll stay off this thread so that you can roll out your thoughts on pond walls, live rock and filtration without my interruption.
    So have at it and enjoy! No hard feelings , 'Bugs'

  9. #29
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    You are doing just fine JR. I feel like I have just discovered the West. Within a mile from my house I just visited a place where I killed two birds with one shot. A marine coral farm being operated by a gentleman with a masters in Biology and Engineering. The exotic corals are a site to behold with yellow tangs employed for algae control. All chemistry question are answered instantly with no hesitation.
    As far as the Nitrogen cycle and what does what and when I am ready to take it to the next level. The picture is getting very clear as I plan my new Refugium and say adios to the wet/dry.

    Pond walls.... a welcome Biofouling... next to discuss.

  10. #30
    Nisai
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    Check out this Demonic bio filter.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 'Overactive'  biological ?-bio_filter.jpg  

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