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Thread: 'Overactive' biological ?

  1. #1
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    'Overactive' biological ?

    We all agree that the accumulation on nitrgenous waste is the most significant threat of immediate harm to aquarium and pond inhabitants. Salt water or freshwater.
    Ammonia NH3, is the primary excretory product of marine and freshwater organisms.
    Biological filtration refers to the detox of aquarium and pond water by nitrifying bacteria.
    1ppm of Ammonia is oxidized to 1ppm of Nitrite.
    1ppm of Nitrite is oxidized 1ppm of Nitrate.
    In some systems mostly salt water, Nitrate can be delt with biologicallly.
    In freshwater we accumulate Nitrate.

    Part 1........ do we all agree with the above please?

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    We all agree that the accumulation on nitrgenous waste is the most significant threat of immediate harm to aquarium and pond inhabitants. Salt water or freshwater.

    Would that it were that simple! Inorganic ammonia is what you are attempting to isolate to make a case. In the 'lab' you are correct, the first and most pressing toxin in the pond/aquarium is the inorganic ammonia released from the GILL and ironically builds to kill the 'releaser' of the toxin. If not managed by bacteria ( many species besides our nitrifiers) and algae which can also use it direct, Ammonia will build until there is osmotic equilibrium. At that point, the fish will not be able to shed any more ammonia as it will be blocked from leaving the body due to 'outside' concentration levels in the water column.
    But this is only one form of pollution and doesn't take into account, organic decay which is not only another source of ammonia but also a source of other pollutants. And THOSE pollutants make koi ponds 'different' from almost all aquariums ( other than maybe turtle tanks!)



    Ammonia NH3, is the primary excretory product of marine and freshwater organisms.

    As mentioned above, only in the lab. In real life, the accumulation of organics and their subsequent breakdown can produce significant amounts of ammonia. One real life example would be algae growth and therefore death of algae. This can be massive and represent to the nitrifcation bed another 'group of fish' in terms of processing the ammonia byproduct.


    Biological filtration refers to the detox of aquarium and pond water by nitrifying bacteria.

    1ppm of Ammonia is oxidized to 1ppm of Nitrite.
    1ppm of Nitrite is oxidized 1ppm of Nitrate.
    In some systems mostly salt water, Nitrate can be delt with biologicallly.
    In freshwater we accumulate Nitrate.

    Part 1........ do we all agree with the above please?
    Senei Perry Mason, I'm a very curious student! And I ask a lot of questions!
    ( I feel like the bunny rabbit nibbling up the carrot bits and hopping forward towards a box propped up with a stick! LOLs ) Is that you Elmore?

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    "Biological filtration refers to the detox of aquarium and pond water by nitrifying bacteria.

    1ppm of Ammonia is oxidized to 1ppm of Nitrite.
    1ppm of Nitrite is oxidized 1ppm of Nitrate.
    In some systems mostly salt water, Nitrate can be delt with biologicallly.
    In freshwater we accumulate Nitrate." - Sensei Perry mason


    Sensei Perry mason, the bunny rabbit would like to ask question #1-

    In what season are these conversions taking at? Is the temperature 55F or 75F? Summer? Winter? Thanks, Bugs

    Sorry to be wordy and I don't wise to derail you hard surfed/gathered points for your presentation ! I just want to pepper the cut and pastes with some real world realities of a koi pond. Not an aquarium and not quite a natural pond -- but an artifical zone in the great outdoors that is impacted by nature in all her harnessed processes.

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    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Now we must be careful with words or the ship sinks. So the shorter and clearer the information is the easier it will be to understand.
    Just a little about the bio filtration mechanics of salt water aquariums and koi ponds.

    Under some salt set ups there is a trickle tower or wet/dry filter with active water dropped from aquarium and pumped back to aquarium passing through wet/dry . Fantastic equipment for Nitrification.

    Next to most freshwater ponds we use a bio filtration system as well. The water is pumped through your choice of media, Nitrification takes place effectively enabling larger numbers of fish to be maintained in less space.

    Part ll

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    Daihonmei
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    Yep, 'Bugs' is listening Senei Perry

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    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    Under some salt set ups there is a trickle tower or wet/dry filter with active water dropped from aquarium and pumped back to aquarium passing through wet/dry . Fantastic equipment for Nitrification.

    Next to most freshwater ponds we use a bio filtration system as well. The water is pumped through your choice of media, Nitrification takes place effectively enabling larger numbers of fish to be maintained in less space.

    If trickle towers or wet/dry filters are fantastic equipment for nitrification for salt water set ups, are they fantastic equipment for nitrification for freshwater Koi ponds?

  7. #7
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    As in Bakki Showers? Maeda-san would say yes.

    As I remember JR had some really nice trickle towers for years on his pond system.

  8. #8
    Oyagoi kingkong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    If trickle towers or wet/dry filters are fantastic equipment for nitrification for salt water set ups, are they fantastic equipment for nitrification for freshwater Koi ponds?
    A trickle tower is a Bakki shower concept mounted under your aquarium with water dropped on is rather then pumped on it as in a Bakki shower.

    But trickle towers and other biofilters are not the best for the final step in the 'cycle' which is to convert Nitrate to Nitrogen gas. This move requires another bacteria that live in an totaly opposite environment, and not the oxygen rich environment like a trickle tower or Balli shower.

    To another subject. I am in the process of reading and getting organized to purchase a salt water tank.
    I just want something called Live Rock to keep in the tank with a few fish. So I am reading about the techniques of this Julian Sprung and Charles Delbeek. Two biology dudes that seem to be on top of the game and best techniques which can change as time goes on.
    I read more about Live Rock and how wonderful it is as a natural biofilter that you put lots of in the marine tank.Then I read that there has been a dramatic change in the mechanical requirements. No more bio media is needed in the trickle tower. Take it out. Don't need it anymore.
    Your trickle tower is now "too effective" with live rock, this over active filtration is now processing too much and throwing Nitrates back into the water. I think where have I heard this before?

    Live Rock has more surface area for algae/bacteria to grow on than a trickle tower. Ammonia, Nitrate and phosphate are devoured by algae and photosynthetic corals and Nitrates are being absorbed.
    This Live Rock is doing the complete 'cycle' on its own so there is no need for a competing outside bio system to put the natural LR out of balance.

    So one would ask...what does this have to do with freshwater water chemistry and bio equipment?
    Not much would be the answer. We pond people still require a source for effective active Biological Filtration to deal with the heavy loads of fish and food. We still have to chart Nitrates and and do water exchanges. There is no mystery 'overactive' biofilter pumping excess Nitrates into your pond. If there is than your fish load is too high and our you are feeding too much. Don't blame the bacteria.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    while we wait for Kong to end his surfing research and return to this class room, we students can probably speak quietly amongst ourselves?

    As kong looks at the different marine fish websites and chat rooms and looks at some abbreviated abstracts on nitrification in marine tanks, I'm remined from his tidbits of the days when I was trying to introduce the idea that koi are a unique species and have their own environmental needs. Different needs than goldfish and even longfin carp. Much of that was down to physical dimensions of ponds. But some of it had to do with their size as a 'waste maker' and the need to design filters differently than filters for shubunkin or globe bodied fancy goldfish.

    In the marine hobby, there are major differences in filter design between a reef system of corals and a full blown marine fish tank.
    This falls around two basic differences-- marine fish need greater nitrification than corals and two) marine systems will biofoul a nitrification bed directly and quickly compared to a reef system.
    So bioballs ans trickle towers are typically found in fish only tanks. and they are avoided in reef systems. The typical reef system will introduce water directly into an empty sump system. The point of entry will be raw pVC tubes that will empty into a sock or more likely, simply introduced below water level into the first section of a sump. from there water moves to a bioactive section of live rock or of algae or simply of active sand.

    JR

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkong View Post
    A trickle tower is a Bakki shower concept mounted under your aquarium with water dropped on is rather then pumped on it as in a Bakki shower.
    INCORRECT!!! a bakki shower is a wet/dry biofilter! There are differences. Wet drys trap like crazy as does the bakki shower. If you go Momotaro's green houses, you will see entire blocks of moss growing in and on the bacteria house media. This is a far cry from plastic media trickle towers! In truth, depending on media selection, a TT can be turned to a wet/dry but a wet/dry can't be turned to a TT in the area and rate of resisting biofouling.

    But trickle towers and other biofilters are not the best for the final step in the 'cycle' which is to convert Nitrate to Nitrogen gas. This move requires another bacteria that live in an totaly opposite environment, and not the oxygen rich environment like a trickle tower or Balli shower.

    Incorrect. TTs have the added benefit of high evaporation potential and active transport into the surrounding atmosphere. TTs create, in effect, asecond surface to the pond-- sometimes larger than the actual pond surface! Nitrogen has never read books on aquarium filtration! And doesn't know that it should only come in three forms! LOLs. Instead Nitrogenous waste comes in three basic forms, incomplete forms and gaseous forms.
    A TT will alllow for evaporation of ammonia and a venting of gases. It will blow off carbon dioxide and nitrogeneous gas.
    So in a 'leaky' system of TTs you will reduce the overall nitrification effect. Unfortunately bioballs in those tiny towers of marine system merely look like TTs but don't perform this function in relatively clean marine systems.

    To another subject. I am in the process of reading and getting organized to purchase a salt water tank.
    I just want something called Live Rock to keep in the tank with a few fish. So I am reading about the techniques of this Julian Sprung and Charles Delbeek. Two biology dudes that seem to be on top of the game and best techniques which can change as time goes on.
    I read more about Live Rock and how wonderful it is as a natural biofilter that you put lots of in the marine tank.Then I read that there has been a dramatic change in the mechanical requirements. No more bio media is needed in the trickle tower. Take it out. Don't need it anymore.
    Your trickle tower is now "too effective" with live rock, this over active filtration is now processing too much and throwing Nitrates back into the water. I think where have I heard this before?

    That's correct, Julian and Charles and all of us in the hobby in the 1980s learned from the Germans mostly to think outside the box - literially. When I was an author for the marine hobby, I would write about 'natural systems' like the ones maintained in Asia. There was a famous tank owned by a hobbyist in south east asian that was LOADEd with live invertebrates and fish, it was impossible and mind blowing. This chinese expert was the father of the natural aquarium and we all pursued its secrets. The Germans embraced it big time and later folks like Julian ( a marine biologist student at the time) jumped in with both feet.
    This is where the concept I share with you arises from, only as with all of these decisions and considerations, varies with the species we keep-- we 'keep' koi.

    Live Rock has more surface area for algae/bacteria to grow on than a trickle tower. Ammonia, Nitrate and phosphate are devoured by algae and photosynthetic corals and Nitrates are being absorbed.
    This Live Rock is doing the complete 'cycle' on its own so there is no need for a competing outside bio system to put the natural LR out of balance.

    Correct.

    So one would ask...what does this have to do with freshwater water chemistry and bio equipment?
    Not much would be the answer. We pond people still require a source for effective active Biological Filtration to deal with the heavy loads of fish and food. We still have to chart Nitrates and and do water exchanges. There is no mystery 'overactive' biofilter pumping excess Nitrates into your pond. If there is than your fish load is too high and our you are feeding too much. Don't blame the bacteria.
    That's correct. But who would recommend live rock for a koi pond??

    Overactive biofilter is my definition. It is unique to our koi ponds in that koi are large dirty creatures. As I said, I can create an overactive biofilter for its pond, using a normal to high load and feed them a certain way in a certain tmperature zone. I can create an overactive biofilter based on how old the pond is and how I stock the same number of fish.
    An overactive biofilter in a KOI POND is one that produces excess pollution in relationship to the ponds ability to dilute those pollutants.
    It is usually a symptom of too many fish, or too much food in a 24 hour period. But not always. That is why I give it a name-- it is a condition that emphasizes the link between the biofilter as a living creature and the water volume it lives it.

    OK here it is some make sure your shoe laces are tied and your sitting down-----
    Just as beginners ignore the food amounts they are feeding because they are focused myoptically on ammonia output, one can ignore the fish and look to the output of a filter as focus. And in that focus, the filter has a relationship to the pond. It can create and change an environment from aerobic to anaerobic. it can support new species of bacteria and create pathogenic swarms of bacteria. It can lower pH, it can produce green water and support string algae. An overactive filter, in short, takes on a life of its own.

    Ooppss! Sensei Perry is back! Sorry Sensei, I cross posted just now as you were posting! hope there is no detention involved! Bugs

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