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Thread: Tancho

  1. #11
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Tancho kohaku, or sanke or showa or?

  2. #12
    Nisai
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    Unhappy

    I think this is a Tancho ???
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tancho-tancho_no_no.jpg  

  3. #13
    Nisai MikeS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Without regard to the judging aspect..... I consider Tancho a work of art quite different from all other koi. I would dearly love to have one, but my pond tends to produce shimmies, so I do without. I have looked for a Tancho Sanke, thinking an odd shimmy would not matter so much, but I find them more difficult to meet my 'artistic sense'. For me, unlike gosanke, great conformation, large body and high quality are not enough for Tancho or Tancho Sanke. Pattern is huge to my enjoyment of them. A slightly off-center maruten can be devastating to my enjoyment. An odd shape can be fine, but only if it is balanced and well-placed. For a Tancho Sanke, the sumi has to be balanced and create an artistic whole in relation to the maruten. If there is too much sumi, or too little, the fish bothers my eye. For me, Tancho and Tancho Sanke are all about pattern. And, that pattern needs to be on a grand canvas. With gosanke, the koi can be wonderfully imposing even with pattern flaws. For Tancho and Tancho Sanke, pattern defines the variety.

    Now, Tancho Showa is in a different class in my eye. Balance is not quite as important. There is an abstract art to the Tancho Showa that allows me to enjoy their beauty even with imperfections in pattern. But, I do get turned off when the sumi so obliterates the maruten as to give only a half-moon. But, sumi through the maruten like black lightening across a red sun... Oh, that is wondrously beautiful.

    Like I said, judging criteria put to the side....
    My thoughts exactly, right on Mike.

  4. #14
    Tosai
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    Good afternoon and thankx for the insightful information everyone.

    You are right JasPR, often times I am limited by the vision of just thinking that only the big famous farm in Japan produce quality fish. I guess it is still a learning process, but most importantly it's a fun hobby.

    Brother Eager, ur tancho matsue shiroji is . So beautiful n clean.

    Brother Handy, I still got a long way to go before entering show. Slowly but surely?

    Pau

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    Tancho kohaku, or sanke or showa or?
    When I refer to "Tancho", I mean only 'Tancho Kohaku'. For me, that is Tancho and not really a Kohaku. Until recent years, I never heard the term "Tancho Kohaku" used. It is commonly seen in use now, particularly on internet koi boards. (I've not noticed it being used on Japanese breeder's websites.) I believe it may have developed on the koi boards as a new usage to be clear when communicating with newbies, and caught on.

    When I refer to any other variety where there is a maruten as the sole beni, I refer to it by both variety and as Tancho.... "Tancho Sanke", "Tancho Showa"... even "Tancho Kujaku". Of course, there is no such thing as a "Tancho Kujaku" in show classifications. In recent years, 'Tancho' has been added to a number of variety names to have clear communication. I see "Tancho Ochiba" listed on many dealer sites, even though the maruten of such fish is not red at all. I consider such a use of 'Tancho' technically inaccurate, but since it clarifies communication I'm all for it.

  6. #16
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    A word-- for show, we want a juvenile contender for baby champion to be all about four things;

    1) Pattern - crisp and flattering. Classic is better than odd. Balance is key

    2) color- brightness that most good baby fish have anad depth. It can be one thick coat which is a negative later but for this part of the competition is what puts the males in charge of the winning.

    3) luster- you know it when you see it

    4) body-- normal and free from deformities.



    In mature adults the criteria shifts

    1) body- full clean

    2) quality- Tancho needs transparent skin at this age. In the middle show, hard white can win but not at this level as the males are now absent in the final rounds for best of variety

    3) color-- color is about depth and finish and luster. In Tancho it is about the thickness of the piebald pattern and not the shape. the thick tancho is a comment about quality of the color

    4) pattern-- Tancho pattern is important in that the standard demands that the gene expression be strong-- this means that this type of piebald pattern be so strong and fixed as to not show up anywhere on the body but the skull dermis. No where else of the pattern has been violated.
    The shape of the tancho is based on the shape of the skull and the fish's body and skin ( shiroji) type. This is why Tancho is the #1 variety to study when trying to grasp the concept of Jitai.
    Some tancho, due to shape and shiroji type look best with a square tancho and others with a large tancho and others with a not-so-large tancho plate pattern.

    JR

  7. #17
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    T, I'm not sure if you are asking me or the poster of the photo? JR
    It was an open question. I have heard many times through the years from several hobbyist that Nisai, Sansai, etc...was the ages to buy Tancho. So what is said true? or should hobbyist stick the quality factors to get them a reliable stable Tancho....I remember a koi hobbyist who bought a nearly 30inch Tancho to have it disappear 2 years later.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori View Post
    It was an open question. I have heard many times through the years from several hobbyist that Nisai, Sansai, etc...was the ages to buy Tancho. So what is said true? or should hobbyist stick the quality factors to get them a reliable stable Tancho....I remember a koi hobbyist who bought a nearly 30inch Tancho to have it disappear 2 years later.
    Well , not to be a wise arse here but it really depends on what you want the fish for-- if it is for the contest then buy what will win in the next six months or so. A baby tancho is easy to buy as what you see is what you get. realistically speaking a tancho isn't going to win baby champion in a competitive show, but it can win first place based on the criteria I posted in teh last post.
    If you are talking about growing a tancho and entering it in a show as an adult, then you are really talking about buying quality. But even with quality there is a gamble that the individual fish will have a wek gene expression and give up the pattern when tested with stress or change. Having said that, as fish get older the odds of failed gene expression lessen in terms of droping the expression for pattern.
    And having sad THAT, tancho is the weakest of pattern gene expressions. As a piebald pattern of very specific type, it expresses the plate in the very narrow dermis if the skull plate. that means it can be seen easily but also that it can't be too thick in terms of depth of color cells-- If you have ever seen a tancho flash and scrape its tancho plate you can begin to appreciate just how thin that layer of color cells really is! In fact, that is WHY tanchos are so often trimmed and sahped with a scaple blade-- it is so easy to remove that thin layer! Unlike the body where beni warps the scales top and bottom and exists deep within a substantial dermis layer.
    So when the genes 'switch off' the signal for expressing phenotype, it is easy for that thin tancho layer to go bye bye.
    If the fish is a late tosai I think you can be confident. Especially if you look at the plate from above and from the side and see a pronounced piling of beni cells. the edges of course can tell alot. And ironically, the square tancho seems more stable then the round.
    I've seen tanchos on three and four year olds that are so thick they look like they rise above the head! LOLs. That is what we want. JR

  9. #19
    Tosai
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    Quick question JR,

    I've seen two nisai tancho, roughly 56cm, one with a super (deep blood red beni), the other is more brighty orangy/red yet looks refreshing and good. Which is better in your opinion? I submitted a photo, not sure if you guys can see it clearly, far right is deep dark beni.

    Can you explain when you mention a piling of beni cells?

    Pau
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tancho-pademangan-20120225-00471.jpg  

  10. #20
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    GREAT question my friend! 'Great', because the best questions are ones that already show understanding.

    We all learn at some point from a breeder or dealer, that the beni with the plate develops in stages and/or layers. So we are taught about Hoshi and 'coats' of color and we feel we FINALLY really get it. I have news!
    Not quite yet! LOLs

    If you look at any kohaku ( of which Tancho is one of the four types) you will notice that while Sensei is telling us about the fish's beni he is not mentioning the different color and development of the head beni!! You will notice however that on one, two and three year olds the color tone of the beni on the head is different than the color color tone on the HEAD! And further, all the chatting going on regarding the kiwa, the hoshi, the elastic nature of the beni ect isn't happening on the head beni!!
    The reason is simple-- beni on the head just doesn't develop like beni on the body!
    Yet if we wait until the kohaku is is yonsai we begin to see that the beni tone on the head catches up to the shade and tone of the body ( almost, depending on quality and lightening).

    The reason is the skin is different in the head. Partly due to lack of scales and partly due to the physiology of the skin over the brain of the fish. There are sensory cells there as well as a 'window' to the pituitary. So the zone of the tancho is quite unique. In fact if you look at other varieties, you will see this area gets dark or tarnished or stained with melanin granuals quite easily. The other point is this ares is usually covered with base color and not pattern ( color compounding).

    So tancho is unique on the head as a piebald pattern. Having said that, these are STILL normal beni cells. Just in a thinner dermis and in thinner layers. And it is a tribute to strong genetics when the pattern is strong and think.
    Like any beni, tancho beni can be one thick coat ( that is dense in the number of cells) or it can be a series of layers of beni cells filling the entire demis. the first condition- the thick single layer is what we see on doitsu koi. It looks great as youngster but the chances of it disappearing are high. Or at least breaking up. In addition, the male fish that finishes young and looses it's pattern is not unique to just body pattern- it also applies to tancho patterned male fish.
    The second tancho type with layers of beni is what you want ( piling up of layers or racks of beni cells). And that can be seen where the normal kiwa would be on body plates. But on a tancho, we don't see that classic edge. Still, an edge is there- and it must be thick and well defined. This assumes you are not looking at a surgical job however. usually you can get a glimpse of a scar or line, if the pattern has been carved. If it is natural like a chevron or a square, you can see the 'height' of beni under the skin. It is helpful to look at the tancho pattern from the side and looking at the koi swimming away from you. This can give glimpses of depth to the plate. So close examination at the edges and then more distant viewing of the density of the pattern.
    And a word about luster-- often the strong tancho is the red/red or red/purple tancho in mature adults. It is strong but not must luster. This is especially true in tancho male showa that have hard white skin.
    I personally like the orange/red beni tancho. These fish have a nice luster and if the edges are strong, you are not likely to see gene expression stop and the phenotype disappear. I'm of the opinion that the luster and beni type holds together as a stronger expression of good genes.
    Hope this helped? JR

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