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Thread: High Nitrates can enhance the colors?????

  1. #11
    Tategoi powerman's Avatar
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    I also think in addition to the effects on skin, that running with a continual high nitrate reading contributes to an overall koi health decline... but I'm not sure if it is the high nitrate itself or what it represents in the way of tired overused exhausted water.. so like has been said a thousand and one times, a constant trickle of good source water or a steady water change regimen that keeps the nitrates low is a much better way to go.... reasonable stocking levels help as well of course..

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerman View Post
    I also think in addition to the effects on skin, that running with a continual high nitrate reading contributes to an overall koi health decline... but I'm not sure if it is the high nitrate itself or what it represents in the way of tired overused exhausted water.. so like has been said a thousand and one times, a constant trickle of good source water or a steady water change regimen that keeps the nitrates low is a much better way to go.... reasonable stocking levels help as well of course..
    Yep. I don't even think anyone in the know debates such statements. But on the internet where people are very much in the early stages of the learning curve, we ( you, me and others) need to address this over and over again.
    The real disturbing think regarding internet posting to me anyway, is the state of 'arrested development' in so many of the folks on some of these boards exhibit after years of reading this and other boards. That is amazing to me, not the number of innocent beginners who have every possiblity of mastering the lesson. JR

  3. #13
    Sansai
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    It's an interesting point though. How much of the decline in health observed in Koi kept in high nitrate water is a direct result of the nitrate and how much is high nitrate a marker for poor water quality generally?

    I suppose that pragmatically it probably doesn't matter because although keeping Koi in two identical well kept ponds and adding excess nitrate to one, in order to determine its effect, would have little application to the real world.

    Generally high nitrate is a marker for poor water and Koi don't thrive in polluted water.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pondlife View Post
    It's an interesting point though. How much of the decline in health observed in Koi kept in high nitrate water is a direct result of the nitrate and how much is high nitrate a marker for poor water quality generally?

    I suppose that pragmatically it probably doesn't matter because although keeping Koi in two identical well kept ponds and adding excess nitrate to one, in order to determine its effect, would have little application to the real world.

    Generally high nitrate is a marker for poor water and Koi don't thrive in polluted water.

    It is. But at the end of the day, it is a 'chicken or the egg' conversation.

    The same is true for the hapless/hopeless that I worked with back in the days of the baking soda wars. They was an insistance that water could be kept 'immortal' in the case of active metabolic rates of living things-- not by dilution but by adding things that made test kits read right. specifically pH and water clarity ( PP) .
    A well know dealer and former friend insisted that baking soda ruined skin and I offered him air support. In truth it was obvious that the general decline in fish health and skin appearance was driven by the general breakdown of water quality (including Ph drop and high NitrAte) and over active micro biology of the pond. And no amount of baking soda would change that level of pollution and pathogen generation. It was in effect a 'symptom' or 'syndrome' more than a signal parameter reading.
    yet there is a level of toxicity regarding NitrAtes. usually quoted in the literature at 600 ppm, it does vary with species. And with other factors such as temperature and pH. JR

  5. #15
    Sansai
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    Obviously every drug and substance will have an LD50 and nitrate is no exception. That figure of 600 doesn't really tell us much apart from that nitrate is much less toxic than nitrite for example, dose for dose.

    The long term effects of prolonged exposure to doses well below the fatal however don't seem clear. People use it as a proxy for poor water quality and that is the reality in most of our ponds.

    Your BS (that's baking soda!) example is interesting. As I use a degree of RO water, I will often add small amounts of BS to keep the bicarb at about 25. I doubt whether you are suggesting that that is toxic to the koi?

    But as you say trying to make water "immortal" (lovely term) with PP and BS is pure BS (not baking soda)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pondlife View Post
    Obviously every drug and substance will have an LD50 and nitrate is no exception. That figure of 600 doesn't really tell us much apart from that nitrate is much less toxic than nitrite for example, dose for dose. Right, I agree

    The long term effects of prolonged exposure to doses well below the fatal however don't seem clear. People use it as a proxy for poor water quality and that is the reality in most of our ponds.
    Yes! and a lot of this is down to perspective and expectations. In many cases, hobbyists are just trying to keep their fish alive. And mastering ammonia management, parasites and areomonas infections might be seen as the entire challenge of the hobby. In that perspective a 'good' nitrAte reading is confirmation of a working biofilter and a major relief! And so the mastering the survival goal is realized. But like climbing a big mountain you get to the top only see another, bigger mountain top loooming ahead! That is the area where we raise our expectations and want to grow, create robust koi of high health and luster and koi that live a long time-- the moving of THOSE goal posts beings in a whole new set of numbers.

    Your BS (that's baking soda!) example is interesting. As I use a degree of RO water, I will often add small amounts of BS to keep the bicarb at about 25. I doubt whether you are suggesting that that is toxic to the koi?
    Well, certainly RO and RO/DI water needs to be buffered. And I use RO/DI in all my aquariums ( marine tanks - salt mixes that already have buffers on them, and amazonia type tanks that are of soft water and low minerals) but not my pond, In that case, I accept the organic battle as the last frontier in high husbandry of a koi pond. I use water changes-- daily on the sumps and weekly on the filters and water changes ( only 10% or so) to keep my bicarb levels stable and sturdy. I like the term 'alkaline reserve' over all other descriptions of the buffering system as it says it all-- the margin or resistance to change-- restored via source water.
    But as you say trying to make water "immortal" (lovely term) with PP and BS is pure BS (not baking soda)
    Glad you agree. it is only one way of looking at it, but it works as an unreasonable goal in a closed system. The moment tap or ground water comes into contact with living matabolisms, 'things' begin to build and other things begin to decline in that raw water. JR

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