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Thread: Sakai FF - March 22nd, 2012 Auction

  1. #21
    Tategoi Erns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSoon View Post
    Trust me Brother Troy

    Anything below 750,000 Yen for this Kohaku , I will re-direct the shipment to your pond ..... . I have put a much higher bid for this fish though .... Don't think it would be easy for me either ...

    David
    It's a good thing I don't have a bid on this one bother David...now knowing you are in the picture bidding again!

    I've got some bids riding on 3, 6, 10, 19, 20, 21, and 42. But judging by the prices spent on the auction this morning on the male koi I fear I have no chance at all!

    Plan 'B' was a few bids on some of the jumbo tosai to leave there for the summer should we not get anything on the nissai side.

    My favorite choice was nr 20 but I heard that there were a few buyers that has placed 1.2mil Yen limits on this kohaku. I really like 3 and 21 as well.

  2. #22
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Interesting for sure. But could you and David please comment on the kiwa as it appears on this kois shoulder plate? JR

    JR, David commented on the right shoulder area of the Kohaku, I thought (Guessing) you were commenting on the Left shoulder area.

    While the Kiwa on the left looks Kamisori, the right looks Maruzome. Is this where you are going with the question ? I don't see weakness, maybe it's time for me to sit back and listen.

    Thanks, Troy

  3. #23
    Oyagoi Lam Nguyen's Avatar
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    I would also like to know if the standard 15-20cm tosai were fall of 2011 spawn or were they spring of 2011 spawn. IMO, most tosai born in spring of 2011 should be around 20-30cm by now and JT born in spring of 2011 should be around 35-45cm with some outliers.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei
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    [QUOTE=DavidSoon;195213]Good Day Brother JR

    Attachment 35276

    Believe the circled area was of some concern . This supposingly sandan Kohaku will end up being a nidan as she grow , unless the unorthodox cut separate the hi-ban and 2nd step , which I will most likely do so if this kohaku lands here ... . I know surgical alteration is not popular or encouraged among the State's hobbyists , but the truth about most nisai in the Sakai FF auctions can be a discouraging fact , as most of these nisais had been surgically repaired ( patterns ) since they were a few inches long . Not a top-notch kohaku , but can still be an expensive kohaku for this auction . Had my dealer Max Ng to confirm my suspicion this morning , but the bodyline and beni is just good enough for a try ... not so much on pattern ..


    Yes that is true David. But I'm talking about the area just to the right and downward from the circle you drew.

    A koi that has a dorsal pattern is in truth a piebald pattern. And as you know, the margin where the beni pate ends takes on a look as it cuts through scales or ends along the scale tips. This is not only a margin that gets fixed with age ( finished) but also a clear ending of a plate- the thicker the plate, the more pronounced the margin ( kiwa).
    And one of the ways that we know about things like surgical repair is how nature or un-natural a pattern is.
    Genetically speaking, the plate is an expression of a gene trait. And having it shift on and off on the same fish is unusual.
    This is a good study for the ZNA judges self designed continuing ed program by the way! The study of the consistency of kiwa type on fish of certain piebald patterns.

    At any rate, when you have a razor cut on the margins of beni plates, it tends to be in a natural direction and angle. And it is unsual to see it in certain angles. You can, for instance see it end straight on the first step of fish with a head pattern and a cut across the fish at the shoulder. And it is normal to see a straight line along the lateral line.
    This fish has two interesting oddities about its kiwa-- 1) it changes in difefrent sections on the fish and 2) it is rather weak resolution to the margin along the 'fault line' of the first plate. That is the area to the right of your circle and travelng downward towards the head.
    I would like to see how that kiwa develops over the next two years.

  5. #25
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    JR, David commented on the right shoulder area of the Kohaku, I thought (Guessing) you were commenting on the Left shoulder area.

    While the Kiwa on the left looks Kamisori, the right looks Maruzome. Is this where you are going with the question ? I don't see weakness, maybe it's time for me to sit back and listen.

    Thanks, Troy
    Yep, you are correct. Lets wait for David's comments and thoughts, JR

  6. #26
    Tategoi Erns's Avatar
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    Well - I got Kohaku nr 31. Will leave her there for at least one summer.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sakai FF - March 22nd, 2012 Auction-031_0557-59-stl.jpg  

  7. #27
    Jumbo DavidSoon's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=JasPR;195232]
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidSoon View Post
    Good Day Brother JR

    Attachment 35276

    Believe the circled area was of some concern . This supposingly sandan Kohaku will end up being a nidan as she grow , unless the unorthodox cut separate the hi-ban and 2nd step , which I will most likely do so if this kohaku lands here ... . I know surgical alteration is not popular or encouraged among the State's hobbyists , but the truth about most nisai in the Sakai FF auctions can be a discouraging fact , as most of these nisais had been surgically repaired ( patterns ) since they were a few inches long . Not a top-notch kohaku , but can still be an expensive kohaku for this auction . Had my dealer Max Ng to confirm my suspicion this morning , but the bodyline and beni is just good enough for a try ... not so much on pattern ..


    Yes that is true David. But I'm talking about the area just to the right and downward from the circle you drew.

    A koi that has a dorsal pattern is in truth a piebald pattern. And as you know, the margin where the beni pate ends takes on a look as it cuts through scales or ends along the scale tips. This is not only a margin that gets fixed with age ( finished) but also a clear ending of a plate- the thicker the plate, the more pronounced the margin ( kiwa).
    And one of the ways that we know about things like surgical repair is how nature or un-natural a pattern is.
    Genetically speaking, the plate is an expression of a gene trait. And having it shift on and off on the same fish is unusual.
    This is a good study for the ZNA judges self designed continuing ed program by the way! The study of the consistency of kiwa type on fish of certain piebald patterns.

    At any rate, when you have a razor cut on the margins of beni plates, it tends to be in a natural direction and angle. And it is unsual to see it in certain angles. You can, for instance see it end straight on the first step of fish with a head pattern and a cut across the fish at the shoulder. And it is normal to see a straight line along the lateral line.
    This fish has two interesting oddities about its kiwa-- 1) it changes in difefrent sections on the fish and 2) it is rather weak resolution to the margin along the 'fault line' of the first plate. That is the area to the right of your circle and travelng downward towards the head.
    I would like to see how that kiwa develops over the next two years.
    Good day Brother Jr

    Sakai FF - March 22nd, 2012 Auction-sakai-neo-universe-unnatural.jpg

    Having used the scapel many times , there's a few faultlines which were noticeable from surgical corrections when the fish was 'young" especially when the skin was still soft coupled with softer scalation, and believe these work were done at least twice before she was ready for this auction . Hard for a layman to observe and understand , but a good lesson as provided by your goodself will enable more to understand the natural piebald pattern , and one that's altered for better pricing ...

    This Kohaku Nr 14 , went for 3.1 mill Yen this morning , while kohaku Nr 11, with a weaker beni went for 1.7 mill Yen ... and of course ...star of the day was the Sansai Sanke Nr 49 , which went for a handsome bid of 6.1 Mill Yen ....

    I did not managed anything this time round !!

    David
    Last edited by DavidSoon; 03-22-2012 at 03:18 AM.

  8. #28
    Tategoi Erns's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DavidSoon;195247]
    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post

    Good day Brother Jr

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Sakai Neo Universe - unnatural.jpg 
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ID:	35291

    Having used the scapel many times , there's a few faultlines which were noticeable from surgical corrections when the fish was 'young" especially when the skin was still soft coupled with softer scalation, and believe these work were done at least twice before she was ready for this auction . Hard for a layman to observe and understand , but a good lesson as provided by your goodself will enable more to understand the natural piebald pattern , and one that's altered for better pricing ...

    This Kohaku Nr 14 , went for 3.1 mill Yen this morning , while kohaku Nr 11, with a weaker beni went for 1.7 mill Yen ... and of course ...star of the day was the Sansai Sanke Nr 49 , which went for a handsome bid of 6.1 Mill Yen ....

    I did not managed anything this time round !!

    David
    Wow bother D - 11 with hi in the pec for 1.7mil?
    16 went for 3.5mil Yen, 41 went for 2.9mil and one of my hopefulls, 42 went for 1.1mil Yen! 2 went for 1.8mil.

    Well I'm happy I at least got something within my budget. I don'y have any experience with Stealth as a parent so I'm breaking new ground. It's from the same bloodline as Tomohawk and so far I'm really happy with my Tomohawk so who know.

  9. #29
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Well, given the amounts bid for jumbo tosai males, I guess the bids on nisai and sansai females should not be a surprise. It's another successful auction for SFF.

    Related subject... What are SFF's growing fees for keeping a koi another year?

    Not related... Does anyone know the fees being charged by Narita and/or Momotaro for finishing koi for show?

  10. #30
    Daihonmei
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    The point I would leave here is that some piebald patterns are stronger than others. And that angles that are un-natural will have difficulty finishing thick and clean.
    The number one thing we look for at shows when it comes to finish and color is the uniformity of the beni. That is partly because we want to see strong finished plates. This is a slightly different thing that 'thick beni'.
    You want a fish to have thick beni plate of course, but you also want the plate itself to be strong and stable. That is WHY kiwa is studied so seriously-- it is not a statement about beni cells--- it is a statement about beni plate strength and finish. So certain pattern types are naturally more stable and their margins ( kiwa) will be very stable.
    I'll put a post on Zna america blog regarding origins and lines tonight. JR

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