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Thread: Pot perm and pro pot perm

  1. #11
    Nisai
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnorth View Post
    If you had used prazi when you first asked about it you wouldnt have flukes anymore.... You can get an orp meter at any real koi/pond supply place. Good luck getting rid of flukes with PP.
    I'm confused some people say to use pp for flukes and some say it won't kill flukes. Some say use prozi but yet some people say prozi won't kill all flukes. I am so confused

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    PP used to be a standby for flukes as malachite green became a known carcinogen. The hobby and really the tropical fish hobby, gives us a lot of these over the counter mediations. And the koi hobby uses these, probably through the goldfish hobby which is the crossover point for many koi keepers ( see the ingredients in the 'Jungle' line of goldfish over the counter remedies).
    The koi hobby, mostly because koi are so large and their watery pens are so large in volume are kinda between the tropical fish world and the aquaculture world and borrows from both. And then there are the Japanese breeder remedies which in the beginning were quite primitive.
    In all modesty when I introduced the injection fo koi on the east coast in 1988 it was really unheard of ( expect for one dentist down in Florida). But within two years aeromonas was being treated rountinely by injection thanks to the advise given in KOI USA. The Japanese were also beginning to inject by then and maybe over did it for a while! So the course of action changed for ever from treating the water to threating the fish directly both topically and internally.

    The point of telling you this is to say that you will be bombarded on the internet with advise as to what is 'best'. But don't confuse the 'best' with the newest compound!

    PP will work on controlling flukes, but it will not eradicate them in an established pond. It will eradicate them in quarantine after a few treatments in a totally bare environment.
    But there are far better compounds for flukes ( gill and skin). I only use the combo of two insecticides for instance that was designed for fish in the aquaculture industry in the 1980s. Others use insecticides for dogs and cats-- they all work.

    So I'll repeat--- PP for protozoa. Flukes are not protozoa. They are much higher life forms- use an insecticide, lower does of two insecticides or combinations of other compounds like Formalin and mal green.
    Identify exactly what your koi have. 2) apply the correct chemotherapy and 3) recheck to confirm they are gone.

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The issue with Prazi is that it does not kill the eggs of the egg-laying flukes. So, it will clear an infestation, only to have the flukes reappear after a couple of weeks. As a result, a second treatment is often needed, which makes it quite expensive to use. It also needs to be left in the pond for more than a week without water changes. I have seen 10 days recommended. That does not work well for a lot of folks. Prazi is more effective if used in combination with formalin/malachite green, such as ProForm C. It still requires a full week without water changes (which makes use of f/mg a bit tricky), and there can still be a re-infestation after 2 weeks from eggs hatching. The livebearing flukes are easier to eradicate.

    The treatment I have come to prefer is not readily available in this country... flubendazole. (sp??) It is available in the UK and sometimes makes it into the U.S. It seems to kill the eggs, with a single treatment being effective within 5 days (for me).

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    good point-- But we should only use chemo when we KNOW what we are treating-- a scrap of a few randomly selected fish and scaped on gill plate, side and shoulder will collect specimens. Look at the fluke carefully and you can tell if you have egg layers or live bearers. It is fascinating to see the young one alive inside the parent or oyabug I guess? LOls
    At any rate, if you the live embryo or count hooks or eyes, you know you have a skin fluke. Treat it and check one day later to make sure all are gone- easy enough and best of all, you do it right and you do it once.

    The preparation I use ( a standard in aquaculture) is effective against both. One agent is better for skin flukes and the other, for gill flukes. But together and in lower doses, it is a one-two punch for both species. JR

  5. #15
    Nisai
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    I'll wait for the prazi to get here and try it first should be in this week some time. After the first dose say at 7 days do a water change then do another dose? The prazi sounds like a safer idea.

  6. #16
    Nisai
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    The prazi isn't going to be here till the end of next week so I went and did a 2ppm pp in my pond and the water stayed purple for about 2hours. The koi seemed fine but they sure we're doing alot of flashing. Is it normal for koi to do a lot of flashing during treatment?

  7. #17
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Where can I get a orp meter?

    Lots of places. I suggest you look online for the Pinpoint series of meters. They are available for ORP, pH...etc. They cost around $120 as I remember. Get a box of the calibration fluid packets. You calibrate the meter to 400mV before using the meter to measure your pond. I would never recommend anyone using PP without an ORP meter. Without a calibrated meter, you don't know the baseline ORP, when you reach the target ORP (500-525mV), and how long the water stays in the target ORP range. When the treatment protocol is over (at least 4 hours) then use a little good old cheap ST to slower drop the ORP back down to the 350-400mV range. Again, slowly raise the ORP...and slowly lower the ORP. And never use peroxide to stop PP, as peroxide is another oxidizer. The last thing the koi need after the stress of a PP treatment is another oxidizer.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300wby View Post
    The prazi isn't going to be here till the end of next week so I went and did a 2ppm pp in my pond and the water stayed purple for about 2hours. The koi seemed fine but they sure we're doing alot of flashing. Is it normal for koi to do a lot of flashing during treatment?
    Two hr is not long enough but it is better to be safe than sorry and I prefer that , the same dosage in a few days time will probably see a purple color lasting up to 8hr. I would be concerned about extra flashing during treatment and have no idea why. Did the fish come to the top for air?
    You have not mentioned any other signs such as reddnes on fins or scales.
    Remember a big water change at least 50% after first treatment as you will have a lot of dead algae.
    I wonder if treatments shorten the lives of fish and only do when absolutely necessary.
    Regards
    Eugene

  9. #19
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeneg View Post
    Two hr is not long enough but it is better to be safe than sorry and I prefer that , the same dosage in a few days time will probably see a purple color lasting up to 8hr. I would be concerned about extra flashing during treatment and have no idea why. Did the fish come to the top for air?
    You have not mentioned any other signs such as reddnes on fins or scales.
    Remember a big water change at least 50% after first treatment as you will have a lot of dead algae.
    I wonder if treatments shorten the lives of fish and only do when absolutely necessary.
    Regards
    Eugene

    Just curious Eugene, why is two hours not long enough? The old timers used to go by color as a way of determining when a change was spent. But in modern times, since I introduced Roddy and others to the ORP meter, we can now measure the reaction and monitor its strength accurately. And the bulk of any oxidative reaction increases for about an hour or so. then it levels off and begins to decline. I'm nost sure of we should rely on old style eye balling of color when the meter actually tells you the progress of the reaction- it is that reaction that kills not the color. It is true that a reaction that turns water brown in a short time is one that is exhausted by the organic filth in a pond. But the meter tell you that reaction exactly as it is occuring.
    Two treatments might be necessary but again, that is CONFIRMED with the use of a meter and a second skin scaping exam.
    JR

  10. #20
    Sansai
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    I'm not a proponent of using PP as a cleanup or maintenance chemical. It is a medication and should be used only as needed. But it is an effective medication with appropriately used.

    The danger of using an oxidizer like PP in the pond is the fine line between it's effectiveness and the health of the koi which are in the same water. JasPR is correct that it is difficult to dose because it is a reaction and not just a parts/per million calculation. I cringe when I hear a beginner asking questions on how to measure it and use it without proper tools and experience. I remember on one forum several years ago that someone had purchased a pound of it and dumped it in his pond. After all, if a little is good, then a lot must be better!

    Time vs. strength. It is an oxidizer and as such works by damaging the cells of the targeted parasites. You either need a high strength dose such as a dip, or a certain length of exposure time for it to work on the target. The larger or more resilient the target, the more exposure time or strength needed. In this case the target was a fluke which is much larger and complex than something tiny like costia which is easily oxidized with PP. I don't know what dose it takes to be effective against flukes, but it is closer to that fine line that I mentioned above. Analogy: You can stick your hand in 160F water for 1 second and not get burned but you can't leave it in for 10 seconds. Raise that temperature to boiling and it works in 1 second.

    Neutralizing with Hydrogen Peroxide. Two oxidizers do not make a stronger oxidizer. They destroy each other in a reaction called decomposition. You can also neutralize peroxide by adding PP. In the weak dilutions we use in the pond, the reaction is not violent. If we used high concentrations, the water would heat up and steam because the reaction produces oxygen, water, heat, and manganese (the brown film you see on top the water). The problem in using it comes from the sudden drop in ORP which can stress the koi just as much as a sudden rise in ORP if you dump all the PP in at one time. You can use peroxide to neutralize the treatment, but put it in slowly and keep watch over your ORP values. If you choose to use ST to decompose the treatment, it should also be added slowly with an eye on the ORP meter.

    ORP value. You cannot state a target ORP value without knowing the pH value. A 2ppm dose in my pond raises the ORP 255mv above the baseline and it doesn't drop during a 4 hour treatment. 500mv in one pond is not the same as 500mv in another pond with a different pH. And the probes are notorious for being inaccurate even when calibrated, so it is much better to set a baseline (existing ORP), and work from that using the same meter. The more meters I use the less confident I am that they indicate anything other than "trends".

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