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Thread: Pot perm and pro pot perm

  1. #1
    Nisai
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    Pot perm and pro pot perm

    All I can find is pro pot perm is there a difference between the two. Can pro pot perm be used to treat Koi? Thanks

  2. #2
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300wby View Post
    All I can find is pro pot perm is there a difference between the two. Can pro pot perm be used to treat Koi? Thanks
    http://www.waterfiltersonline.com/ma...-perm-msds.pdf

    "Pro" products is the company's name... so yes, it appears to be regular potassium permanganate (KMnO4). Note: I would suggest using a gram scale because different brands and grades use different size crystals. Like salt, different size crystals can make measuring by spoonfuls inaccurate. It is the weight that you are after.

    Here is an online calculator that may be helpful:
    CNYKOI - Potassium Permanganate (pp) Calculator

    IMHO: I noticed in another thread that you want to use it to treat for flukes. Flukes are rather large parasites, so I have some reservations on how effective it would be unless you dose at a rather high level and adequate time. You really have to know your pond and have the right tools and experience to dose at high levels. What works for one pond owner may not work for all because ponds are so unique. And please note all the precautions and incompatibilities on the msds sheet linked above.

  3. #3
    Sansai
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    PP can be really good stuff. Just be aware that there is a very fine line dosage wise between killing the bugs in the pond and killing everything in the pond.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    Koi that are treated on a regular basis with PP will hemorrhage from the gills especially when in the first and second stages of G.A.S. so be aware of that. This can be seen when you net koi after PP treatments-- the pressure from the gasping in of water and the actual increased gas exchange rate will cause the epithelia cells to burst. If you do a full strength salt dip with koi in this gill condition you have a strong chance of seeing them roll over in that brine tub and not recover. This old fashion combo used in the 1980s killed more than one fish in its day. Beware. The gills are the intersection for all interaction with a koi’s internal workings and the outside environment. That ‘screen door’ on the living submarine is to be protected at all costs- especially in a closed system where koi swim in their own pollution of gases and dissolved waste.



    Treat with PP for protozoa eradication only. The target species are:
    1) Costia
    2) Trichodina
    3) Chilodonella
    4) Stages of ich

    Do up to two doses ( full strength) and then do a 40-50% water change.

    Use anyone of the pesticides for Flukes (or mal/formalin)

    Use dimilin for any of the 'shell' building/shedding parasites like anchor worm or fish lice.

    JR

  5. #5
    Nisai
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    So for a 2ppm solution for a 700gallon pond I need 5.3 grams. Will 2ppm kill flukes of should I go up to 3ppm. There is no debris in my indoor pond only a little algae. I'm going to do some more research for a couple days before I do this. My Koi the last week or so don't do much swimming they mostly lay on the bottom and only come up to feed, would that be from the flukes. They do swim around but very little.

  6. #6
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300wby View Post
    So for a 2ppm solution for a 700gallon pond I need 5.3 grams. Will 2ppm kill flukes of should I go up to 3ppm. There is no debris in my indoor pond only a little algae. I'm going to do some more research for a couple days before I do this. My Koi the last week or so don't do much swimming they mostly lay on the bottom and only come up to feed, would that be from the flukes. They do swim around but very little.
    You have two threads going on... I would go back to the original thread where Eugene gives some specific instructions and warnings on using it. I have never used PP for flukes and follow JasPR's basic guide above for selecting medications for parasite control.

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    In a perfect situation, you would treat koi with PP in a bare quarantine tank. That way you know what the charge strength really is.

    Here is the first thing and most important thing that every hobbyists must know about PP-- it is not dosed per gallon or ton as we do other compounds so as to have an 'ambient' or known water concentration. This is because PP is a REACTION and not a compound. So to give a dose level as a universal thing is meaningless. We could both have the same gallons in our pond but yours would produce a full reaction and mine might produce 1/2 the reaction you see. This is why people are so afraid of PP and others are so over confident.
    PP is an oxidative reaction. It attaches chemically speaking, to any organic material ( dead or alive) and tears apart the organic molecule. IF the reaction is powerful, it will tear apart living tissue. So we use it to rip the cilia right off protozoa and kill them outright. We could really up the dose and kill a koi the same way if we wanted to. So in most toxins we use to kill parasites it is merely the dose that detrmines if the koi will survive but smaller forms will die. In a chemical reaction like oxidation using all the following, too much PP, too much ozone, too much chlorine or too much Biotoc and the fish is dead along with the parasite.
    So we control the dose or change. But you must first measure the dose and then monitor the charge. And be prepared to stop the reaction. Too little is only killing off the biology of the pond and having no real effect on higher forms like flukes. using too much and having a powerful reaction kills flukes and maybe fish.
    The way to monitor the reaction is by using an ORP meter. You do not want ANYTHING beyond a 550mV reading and then only for four hours at the very most. You then want to check the fish the next day to insure there are no parasites living on the fish ( slime coat exam under a microscope). If there are, do a 40% water change and repeat dose and monitor charge. And use a gram scale to get the best accuracy.
    So lower your pond water to about 75% capacity and then add your charge. Have your ORP meter running. Monitor and if you are in trouble, begin adding freshwater to fill the pond back up ad reduce the charges power. You might also have hydrogen peroxide available but to used only in an emergency.

    JR

  8. #8
    Nisai
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    Thanks for all the info

  9. #9
    Nisai
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    Where can I get a orp meter?

  10. #10
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    If you had used prazi when you first asked about it you wouldnt have flukes anymore.... You can get an orp meter at any real koi/pond supply place. Good luck getting rid of flukes with PP.
    Koi-Unit
    My personal koi page Updated 7/8/07
    ZNA Potomac Koi Club

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