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Thread: Meter Koi

  1. #11
    Daihonmei
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    First place showa
    Second place sanke
    third place kohaku
    honorable mention, the guy in the blue shirt! LOLs

    I agree, 80-85 bu is enough and the proportions of the body are more in keeping with a pleasing shape. Once they get passed 90 cm they get a bit disproportional as any giant tends to look. JR

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Mike, when I used the words 'Jumboism' and then 'Gigantism' I wanted separate out the normal genes from the abnormal or artificial.

    One key is if the beeder mentions that their 'jumbos' reach sexual maturity earlier than normally reared koi. This is a tip off when using growth Hormones as colors and maturity in general are all speeded up.


    Here is a piece on commercial salmon endured with injected growth cells-- Note the growth rates in the early cycle of life.---


    Growth-enhanced salmon proposed

    Atlantic salmon remains the most important farmed food fish in global trade. Salmon is a carnivorous fish, and aquaculturalists have been working to improve feed-conversion rates and efficiencies through selective breeding, and the inclusion of plant-based protein (soy, rapeseed oil and corn gluten) in feed formulations. As a consequence, feed input per fish has decreased to 44% of 1972 levels; likewise, current diets contain approximately half the content of fishmeal that they once did (Aerni 2004).
    The first transgenic food animal to be submitted for regulatory approval in the United States was transgenic Atlantic salmon carrying a chinook salmon growth-hormone gene controlled by a cold-activated promoter from a third species, the ocean pout. The mature weight of these fish remains the same as for other farmed salmon, but their early growth rate increases by 400% to 600%, with a concomitant 25% decrease in feed input and a shortened time to market (Du et al. 1992) ( see photos, page 129 ). Assuming a positive regulatory approval decision and consumer acceptance, the enhanced growth rate and feed efficiency of these transgenic salmon could increase salmon aquacultural productivity significantly, and would likely necessitate that salmon aquaculturists adopt the technology to remain competitive (Aerni 2004).
    Hmmmm..... Given the success of jumbo tosai in increasing revenues for breeders who have invested in the 'eternal summer' growing facilities, I can readily imagine someone wanting to go the transgenic route. At this time, at least, the capital cost would be inhibitive given the small market compared to food production.

    Question: What do we know about use of growth hormones in koi production? Is it occurring? Has it been attempted but not continued? ...This would seem the comparatively easy means to get a quick buck. 70cm nisai, anyone?

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
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    well, as I hinted, Mike, when you see koi heated all winter, exposed to pure oxygen and massive water change and fed many times a day, you can feel comfortable that this is simply an intensive growing operation.

    But when a breeder talks about bright finished colors in jumbo tosai and great size and that they also reach puberty earlier than normal-- this is a byproduct from groeth hormone use. A common practice in the Asian tropical fish industry. And the fish breed at a very young age-- what happens is, the fish color up much earlier as the GH used matures them much quicker- and part of that maturing is rapid growth.
    I am comfortable with the notion that the koi industry only used intensive growing technique ( as an industry) but I can't help but think 'GH use' when I hear reports of females able to breed at age two or three. JR

  4. #14
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    Over 2m......?!! No, thank you.
    http://www.narita-ryuki.com/wp-conte...129_120030.jpg

    Seriously speaking, there have been many discussions in the past several years and "85cm+ is enough" is the dominant opinion & idea up to the present.
    LOL . I do not have space for a pond to house those, could not pick up a net big enough to corral them and would need a second job to pay for their feed. But, I would pay admission to Sea World to see them jump through hoops.

  5. #15
    Daihonmei
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    Mike, I think if we collected data and graphed a group A--naturally reared koi ( 4 season koi) and group B as intensively reared hot house koi and then injected group C with GH ( and exposed them to intense grow out technique), we would find that the largest fish after 5 years would be group C and group B & A would be the same size. And finally that group C would be the shortest lived and group B the escond shortest living.
    I also believe that group C would produce a few individuals of a very large size.
    So to make up a conclusion ;

    group C might produce one or two individuals over one meter
    group B many 90 cm plus individuals
    group A a few 90 pluse individuals

  6. #16
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    One of the early lessons taught to new hobbyists is the the most important element of koi appreciation is conformation. However as new hobbyists we are not experienced enough to grasp to full meaning of body shape. It encompasses many elements including size, body, head, belly, chest, shoulder, and fin shapes, height, width, head to body length ratios, defects, etc. etc. etc.

    It takes me longer than most to begin to understand some of the finer points of koi appreciation. When I began to focus on body proportions rather than size I begin to be able to better appreciate that better conformation was not always bigger conformation.

    This was brought home recently at the All Japan Show in Tokyo last month.
    I stood for quite awhile and listened to someone argue that the jumbo kohaku that won the award for the 2nd best koi in the show should have won the Grand Champion award. They argued that the Grand Champion should be the most impressive koi in the show and the Kohaku that was close to 1 meter in length and huge in girth which dwarfed the much smaller 84 cm showa that was awarded Grand Champion. The huge shoulder hump on the kohaku projected power he thought and the fact that it's huge body was out of proportion to it's head was normal for jumbo koi and should be admired accordingly. He did admit that the showa was more beautiful but a koi show is not just a beauty contest. Most of those gathered listened politely but he did not seem to gain many conversions to his opinion that I could tell.

    In my opinion this is a classic example of a "blind spot" much too focused on size vs overall appreciation. If you look at a photo of a female world champion weight lifter we can all agree that they have a very impressive bulked up muscular body much larger in proportion to their normal size head. But is this what most of us would consider beautiful? I realize this is not a great analogy but hopefully will help me make the point that a koi show is a combination of a animal stock show, a beauty contest and also a art contest. Here are two photos I took of these koi that hopefully will help with our discussion. Wish I could figure out how to better represent the much larger size of the kohaku but the photos seem to load as similar in size images.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  7. #17
    Daihonmei
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    Very good lesson Ray, thanks for sharing. It is interesting to see and hear this happening in Japan and with breeders and dealers as judges.

    In the USA we were very color/pattern driven in our early years. I think it is normal to first see koi that way with our beginner's eye.
    But we eventually were more and more exposed to the Japanese eye and next we began to appreciate 'body-line' and conformation. But unfortunately this tended to be a bias towards size and volume and not the finer points of good and bad conformation. And so we are still working our way through that stage. Some big koi do have characteristics that can be over looked as they are large and older. But it is understood that they might find themselves competing with fish that need no 'forgiveness' what soever. Something to think about.
    The era of quality and finish is now upon us! And the 'anchor' or foundation ,which is the body, as a prime judging point, is integrated with quality and perfection-- and the finer points of conformation. Those finer points are beyond length and volume.

  8. #18
    Jumbo
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    In addition to Ray's good lesson, the key word is "Varietal characteristics and distinctive value for the variety"... (Rarity value - how hard to reach the level or breed/produce). this word has been emphasized at the ZNA judging seminars (in Japan) by Mr. Kizawa repeatedly.

  9. #19
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    In addition to Ray's good lesson, the key word is "Varietal characteristics and distinctive value for the variety"... (Rarity value - how hard to reach the level or breed/produce). this word has been emphasized at the ZNA judging seminars (in Japan) by Mr. Kizawa repeatedly.
    Thank you for adding to this discussion Junichi.

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