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Thread: How would you bench this koi?

  1. #11
    Sansai WayneB's Avatar
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    Would you say the koi which this topic is about has the same "look" as this one.



    Its one of my own from a post back in 2008. I have moved this koi on but i still see it often and its black has not come up even 4 years later.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    No, that's different sumi. Study the sumi-- its location and the way it sets up as a pattern or a look. But I see your point, the tone of the beni is similar. JR

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brutuscz View Post
    Why not showa??
    why showa? The locals hate when I mention 'atmosphere' of koi as it must make them think I'm sitting in a meditating poistion in my sandels and robe!

    But if we are into koi appreciation in anything deeper than the superficial we really need to 'see' the fish for what it is beyond pattern.

    B, you know I poke at you alot about your blind spot in seeing koi beyond pattern. But this is another example of that. You need to look past a fish's pattern to ;A) see its quality and B) to see what the fish really is as a variety

    So on B) you want the abililty to see color-- in this case orange. The orange is not a normal orange however for gosanke. It is true that it could be a stage of development but burnt orange color begins a curosity. Is the fish developing or is the fish from some other 'orange' source such as goshiki or kawari?
    In addition, the pattern is sumi and over the body so by text book explanation that is a kind of gosanke and based on 'location' and style, maybe it is a showa? But no, because the sumi is not showa sumi. If you look closely, you will see that this sumi is reticulated and 'appointed' to scales as a pattern. This is not a showa trait. It is also not a sumi pattern that wraps but sets up on the dorsal like we see in asagi and other primitive patterned varieties.

    It will be interesting to hear the answer from Bradley. JR

  4. #14
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    I am beginning to think that atmosphere you either get or you don't. It is an artistic element of koi that I find is not possible to articulate in a simple definition.

    Matsukawabake is a sumi/shiro look that does cross over into locations we find for other varieties. Perhaps the hobby is use to the sumi rising from the belly? I have posted photos in the past where the sumi has a dorsal location. These are locations and not orientation. This I think is why this koi can easily be confused for bad sanke or bad showa - and I have been told this koi is one or both. In those conclusions it is all about location and not orientation.

    As far as the sumi goes, take a look at the colour location within the scale and compare it to showa and asagi.

  5. #15
    Daihonmei
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    Great lesson Bradley and great contribution for those looking to open their koi eye a bit further.

    Not to repeat what you just said, but atmosphere is something that is hard to see until one day you see it. The epiphany is not unlike finally seeing quality for the first time after being trapped in pattern and color for a few years.

    I like to use dogs as an example as most people seem to have a natural sense of what makes a breed a breed. We have many breeds of dogs. But they all fall into certain catagories or looks-- you have the dog with a long snout, peaked pointy ears, dense coat, wolf like features and a furred tail that tends to curl when they move. These are German shepards, siberian huskies, malamutes, belgium sheep dogs, Akita, etc

    then you have the dogs with the facial mutation of a deformed snout, semi-erect eyes and over bits. These are boxers, boston terriers, bull dogs, mastiffs, pugs ect
    And there are the hounds- short haired, floppy ears, deep chests etc. Vizla, german short hairs, pointers, fox hounds etc.

    If we were to cross any of these breeds we might guess their origin by identifying certain traits but also by the sense of the dog-- the way it looks as an overall individual. So we see 'strong' german shepard traits in the individual breeding or strong indications of the boxer in the jaw of a mixed breed.

    maybe this is an easier way to sense atmosphere in a non-uniform standard example? JR

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    JR. Very well spotted. You should be a koi judge LOLs. Just kidding mate. The parent koi is sanke and matsukabake. The sanke is from a sanke line and the matsukabake is from my third generation of matsukawabakes that I have been crossing back to kohaku each generation.
    The red and white ones are called 'kohaku' right?? LOLs

    There is a classic section on the right side at the dorsal fin area ( just to the right of the dorsal) that is classic matsukawabake. That sumi appointment on the scales is classic. And the tone of the beni is similar to what we might expect in beni-kumonryu. It also has they primitive look although it could be an illusion due to the beni covering the head which always makes a koi look more ' wild fish like'. But I would have to see the fish live to see it move and see the head at different angles to really push that point. Your thoughts? JR

  7. #17
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    There is an element of an older style and tone - some atavistic genes. I will take close look and take a look at the siblings/relatives for comparison

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    Look forward to your report! Best, JR

  9. #19
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    There is a subtle, but certain look in some carp that is similar and yet different. Colour tone is one. It is an intermediate between carp brown-black and asagi-showa black. You can see it sometimes in lower grade koi. Carp orange is the same. It is simlar to pond grade orange and yet it is different. On an orange bellied karasu-goi, the orange is marginally different, but close enough I think to see. Perhaps this is the perception?

    The first photo is a different koi, another matsukawabake but with a red belly. The second photo is more over the top, with the head pointing down, hence the narrower look. Otherwise, I hope it helps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How would you bench this koi?-dscf2683-2-.jpg   How would you bench this koi?-bm.jpg  

  10. #20
    Daihonmei
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    Good Morning!
    well if you look at the geneological chart for that whole branch of karasu goi you will see that after asagi the melanistic crow appears. But in truth, melanistic koi likely developed along side the asagi progress from a navy blue solid koi with a red belly.
    As we know from historic records, the first kumonryu was also a big deal ( and happened of course after the German's gift of Austrian doitdu carp-- and the Sino-Russian war).
    This complex of 'first' white bellied black fish certainly rose from and along side the asagi. So we have a separation as the breeders saw the white as a special gene and one that spread from belly, to fins, to head& fins and then as a general presence on the black based primitive types.

    So it seems very reasonable that we would see two branches of hypermelanistic fish with different colors in the abdomen and what makes this very interesting is how the white of asagi moved to leucism and also stayed as a spreading/restricted expression in the other branch.

    If you look at the karasu fish I posted in a recent thread with my shusui-- it is a doitsu melantistic fish with a red belly and if you look closely- a streak of red near the head. Yet that fish has white fin appointments ( spreading gene) but also a white/grey head of asagi-- that is WHY I posted it next to a true shusui which really has much of the same genetics.
    If it is true that a picture is worth a thousand words, then that picture I posted is a complete lesson in the roots of asgai and how two branches were formed that are distinct but the 'same' in their core genetic roulette wheel potentials.

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