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Thread: How would you bench this koi?

  1. #21
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    It also has they primitive look although it could be an illusion due to the beni covering the head which always makes a koi look more ' wild fish like'. But I would have to see the fish live to see it move and see the head at different angles to really push that point. Your thoughts? JR
    More obvious in this one from the same spawn.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How would you bench this koi?-second.jpg  

  2. #22
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    More obvious in this one from the same spawn.
    Yep, 'atmosphere' -- its all there. From the tone of colors, the style of sumi and the interplay of colors.
    For my buddy Brutus, I'd like him to first look at this fish as to pattern and call it -- maybe aka sanke or hi showa. Then I'd like him to consider why the fish doesn't look like most aka sanke he has seen or any hi showa he has seen. The answer will be that the fish isn't 'right' for one of those varieties. It 'looks' and 'feels' different for some reason? The reason is the fish IS fundamentally different in sumi and beni type as well as having all the 'echos' of other varieties. In the end it is MORE primitive in gene type and phenotypic expression that refined gosanke. It has all the atmosphere of karari mono. JR

  3. #23
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    When you look at the koi that come out of flock spawns in garden ponds, all sorts of traits are mixed together. Wild tendencies are stirred together with pigments that were preserved by selective breeding. The oft-seen Speckledy Goi could be labeled a variety in itself. Indeed, in common parlance we know what is meant by an Orange Speckledy Goi or a White Speckledy Goi. But, these low class koi are not deserving of recognition, so we do not bother. We know they should be culls, not $6.99 at the local pet shop.

    Bradley is on a search for a new variety, so a purpose is served. For others, it would be past time to cull.

  4. #24
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    When you look at the koi that come out of flock spawns in garden ponds, all sorts of traits are mixed together. Wild tendencies are stirred together with pigments that were preserved by selective breeding. The oft-seen Speckledy Goi could be labeled a variety in itself. Indeed, in common parlance we know what is meant by an Orange Speckledy Goi or a White Speckledy Goi. But, these low class koi are not deserving of recognition, so we do not bother. We know they should be culls, not $6.99 at the local pet shop.

    Bradley is on a search for a new variety, so a purpose is served. For others, it would be past time to cull.
    Well certainly Bradley is having a little more than fun! he is exploring the karasu blood line and putting identity to the resulting genetics. A 'flock' spawn is a very different thing! A flock spawn is a natural selection of dominate mutation traits over lesser dominate traits-- so you move away from linked order in pattern and color. One of the things that the japanese 'appear' to have concentrated ( an illusion helped along by the act of culling) in known varieties.
    Bradley can EASILY get back to black only karasu with the genes he is working with. You are right, in that he would need to weed out the beni in culling and not use those karasu with red bellies any more. But the fundamental stock he works with in these F2 are very kawari ( as a type and not as a the catch all catagory we know the world from in koi shows).
    I believe that we need to use the word atavism carefully when we are talking about koi as there is regression to the more primitive varieties and then there is regression to raw mutation genes--- as you know, we can never breed nishikigoi back to pure magoi again. Once a gene pool is isolated and changed, it can never ever again be the same as the wild stock.
    Balon writes about this in his origional paper and laments the loss of wild common carp in the rivers of eastern Europe and the dominance of the feral carp in its place. the true golden carp ( wild morph) of common carp is an example of a morph that is no more in the wild. but I digress-- JR

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