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Thread: Differences in Chagoi, Kigoi and Karashigois

  1. #1
    Nisai SRATHA's Avatar
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    Differences in Chagoi, Kigoi and Karashigois

    Trying to figure out the differences between the 3 fishes in question. However there were a few theories I can think of but is it really is this simple?
    The words "cha" which directly translates to English as brown, "ki" is to yellow and "karashi" to mustard. With that out of the way, does this simply mean these fishes are classified by the color of their shade of colors?
    There are varying shades of brown on a Chagoi, some may even be reminiscent to those of a karashigoi but yet are still classified as a Chagoi? And vice versa?
    Lastly there are karashigois which are more yellow rather than mustard. Are these varieties simply classified by their colors or are there something that am missing?
    Any comments are welcomed

    Ratha

  2. #2
    Daihonmei
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    Ratha, the one think you can take away from koi names and varieties is that they are confusing!!
    The names of koi are often made up by the original breeders or by early koi personalities and are not consistant. Kohaku just means red and white but asagi is named after a material and ochiba is named after a poetic image! So there is no consistancy there and you shouldn't look for one.
    The varieties as show classifications however are based in a deeper reality of genetics. there we have the closest thing to 'scientific separation' of types. In science, species and subspecies are created and separated from others when so small physiological change is identified and is consistant. It might be the number of teeth or the number of rays on a dorsal fin or some other small structural change. In koi of course we have none of that. But we do have different counts in alelles and also fundamental changes in geneotype that leads to different looks in phenotypes- and these things are consistant-- So ZNA created defined repeating traits define koi as having one of two base colors ( this became the family tree branches) and then the pattern variation into four types and a few sub types of those four.

    Your issue to see these differences is not hard-- blue, brown, black and red are types of black. And chagoi are solid colored fish as are most all ogons.
    To complicate this, you can get 'intermidate' looks as combined or incomplete dominace happens in many hybrids that some breeder will call a variety of koi.
    So you can have ochiba that are 'top/bottom' shades of solid patterned fish. Or you can have ochiba that are hybrids of kohaku and ogon that are dorsal pattern fish and might be making a journey in base color. This is one reason why hybrids are really not ever the same over decades as the formula is being changed and so is the fish, fundamentally. the kindai showa being the classic change from black base to white base.

    So chagoi is a basic solid patern fish. The color of chagoi is not important as they are all shades of the same genetic pot.
    Kigoi is also a solid patterned fish. But it is a unique mutation and not part of the two branches of base color-- it is a true albino and typically is yellow or in some cases a pastel red. These are unique.
    The 'purple' fish of many names over the years, are solid ogon types. The 'purple' is a black base and interplay with invading white might be present to change the shade of the fish like it does in asagi. if the have 'mixes' of genetics and show some other color, then they are simply a cross of two solid types that gives a 'top/bottom' orientation that is common even on magoi if you look closely. Top is always darker than bottom on carp and often you can see something of a shading at the lateral line that looks a bit like a pattern. often with black, red or brown shading-- still a 'solid' patterned fish with color variations. JR

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The labels are just plain frustrating at times! At CFKS last month there was a beautiful solid, pure yellow koi that I immediately took to be a Kigoi. But, it had dark eyes. Kigoi that are not red-eyed are rare and tend to end up with orange speckles and changing color tones. My next thought was that it was a Midorigoi, which sometimes become a bright yellow when the underlying sumi is 'down'. But, it did not have the brightness of a yellow-phase Midori. So, I was thinking 'maybe Kigoi' again when the owner came up and told me it was a Karashigoi, which made more sense although the fish was more of a true yellow than the other so-called Karashigoi I've seen in person. One U.S. dealer who imports from Japan recently told me: "Mustard comes in all shades of yellow depending on the type of mustard you like." So, if you like your mustard on the brownish side (like the Grey Poupon brand in the U.S.), there is a Karashigoi for you. Or, if you like the bright yellow of common mustards with less pretense of being gourmet (like the French's brand in the U.S.), one can be found to suit your taste.

    Although Karashigoi were recently developed and have been labeled as independent from Chagoi, I find the Karashigoi and Chagoi body types and other traits to be so alike as to be indistinguishable except by color... which runs from the khaki 'green chagoi' to brown, to tan, to reddish 'root beer chagoi' to mustard yellow (pick your flavor). Akame Kigoi, on the other hand, is different. It is very rare to see one with a Chagoi-type body and size. Indeed, I think there is more variation in body shapes among Akame Kigoi, which I presume reflects the fact that the variety is defined by the albinism trait rather than the sum of all of the characteristics of the individual fish.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    The labels are just plain frustrating at times! At CFKS last month there was a beautiful solid, pure yellow koi that I immediately took to be a Kigoi. But, it had dark eyes. Kigoi that are not red-eyed are rare and tend to end up with orange speckles and changing color tones.
    NO, NO! Kigoi that are not red eyed, are not kigoi!! Kigoi are albinos and all albino's by definition can not produce the color black--- especially in the special embyonic differentiated tissue behind the eye.






    My next thought was that it was a Midorigoi, which sometimes become a bright yellow when the underlying sumi is 'down'. But, it did not have the brightness of a yellow-phase Midori. So, I was thinking 'maybe Kigoi' again when the owner came up and told me it was a Karashigoi, which made more sense although the fish was more of a true yellow than the other so-called Karashigoi I've seen in person. One U.S. dealer who imports from Japan recently told me: "Mustard comes in all shades of yellow depending on the type of mustard you like." So, if you like your mustard on the brownish side (like the Grey Poupon brand in the U.S.), there is a Karashigoi for you. Or, if you like the bright yellow of common mustards with less pretense of being gourmet (like the French's brand in the U.S.), one can be found to suit your taste.

    This is a partial dominance or dilute gene.
    Although Karashigoi were recently developed and have been labeled as independent from Chagoi, I find the Karashigoi and Chagoi body types and other traits to be so alike as to be indistinguishable except by color... which runs from the khaki 'green chagoi' to brown, to tan, to reddish 'root beer chagoi' to mustard yellow (pick your flavor). Akame Kigoi, on the other hand, is different.

    Akame is also an albino. It is a unique mutation. nothing whatsoever to do with normal genetics. It can be carried in lines and show up when certain breedings happen ( see human albinism for a better understanding)
    The dilute gene gives you pastel colors or the same solid color-- bird folks breed a lot of partial dominance genes and get pastel colors in many varieties- perhaps the most beautiful are the indian ring neck pastels.




    It is very rare to see one with a Chagoi-type body and size. Indeed, I think there is more variation in body shapes among Akame Kigoi, which I presume reflects the fact that the variety is defined by the albinism trait rather than the sum of all of the characteristics of the individual fish.
    You're killing me here! LOls

  5. #5
    Daihonmei
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    let me try something-----

    Albino-- what it is--an albino is an animal that can't produce the color black. It CAN produce other colors but the biochemical reaction that makes melanin is dysfunction or non existant and black can't be produced.
    KIGOI is a name for a yellow fish with orange eyes-- that is the albino form in nishikigoi gene pool.

    Leucism-- lecuism is a type of albinism loosely speaking. In these individuals, black can not be produced NOR can any other color be produced! This is the domain and description of one major branch of white based nishikigoi. In this genetic mutation, unlike true albinos, the gene mutation begins after a stage of embroyic development and the embryonic tissue that forms the eye retains its ability to produce color whereas in the true albino ( kigoi) the individual looses all ability to produce sumi including in the embryonic differentitated tissue cells behind the eye.


    Color in koi most often than not, has some melanin in the skin. But some genetic expressions drain all or most sumi out of the color cells. This is beyond man's ability to stress color in individual breedings ( selective breedings). This is what gives us the first beni goi for instance- selective breeding for color. But there is another, more refined way to go-- you can breed koi which 'lack' sumi in their color. This is the OPPOSITE side ( or reverse direction towards an albino look) of breeding albinism. It is taking a colored individual and draining sumi from its color. This is called a dilute, where black is drained but color is left. As opposed to a true kigoi or any other albino that lack the ability to make sumi at all.
    So low sumi content fish or 'dilutes' ( also known as 'pastels' in some breeding circles) are not albinos. But breeders can use albinos and choose hetero genetic individuals to line breed to continually reduce the sumi presence in the individual. The fish can still produce sumi but in ever decreasing levels.
    Red in koi is a type of black-- a mutation of the melanin and as such, it behaves like sumi. A red fish is a 'kind of ' black fish. And red creeping up in the skin of yellow fish is that expression of sumi trait in the mutation red.
    But in albino fish, these red still exists as does yellow. No sumi but almost always red or yellow.

    I'll stop here -- JR

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    And here's an easier one for all of us to discuss-- the asagi-- this is a singular expression of many mutation traits and it exists in 'different colors' ( not really but we see it that way).

    An asagi can be;

    1) all blue
    2) all grey
    3) sky blue
    4) gun metal grey
    5) black
    6) silver
    7) almost white
    8) navy blue

    It can have ticking or ornmental ticking/boarders on all scales. it can have blue at the base of each scale or it can be reversed with blue at the tip of the scale.

    an asagi can have :

    1) bright red at the base of its body below the lateral line'
    2) have a red head
    3) be almost all red and become like an aka matsuba
    4) can be orange/red
    5) be white below the lateral line and have red
    6) can have seven or eight spots of red on the dorsal fin ( the good ones do)
    7) have light orange or burnt orange ( kawari/goshiki red)
    8) can have a well defined lind between red and blue with red on both cheeks uniformally displayed
    9) can have a white, tan , light blue, silver or red head/skull top.

    Finally scalation and reticulation can vary widely! from uniform to changing from dorsal to sides.



    But we seem to have little trouble seeing these all as 'asagi'. But once in a while they are not asagi but have re-appeared from other varieties that demonstrate an 'echo' from the omni-present genes of the asagi. JR

  7. #7
    Nisai SRATHA's Avatar
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    Jas,
    Thanks for the clarification. From what I can gather from the posts, chagois are more closely related to the karashigois loosely based on the fact that they are both not a mutation fish by not being an albino. Like most chagois, the karashigoi's color variation is vast. This makes the two variety in question overlap in colors that they produced. This overlap in color can be misleading I believe these fish can be passed off as either variety.

    Another thing I might add is that kigois are albino fish, making this variety absent of any sumi. Thus making bright yellow fish with black eyeris fall under the classification of a karashigoi.

    Some believed the Karashigoi are a result of crossing kigois and chagois.

    Here is a video of chagois in varying colors, the skin colors may fall under the color of a grey mustard.

    jumbochagoi.avi - YouTube
    I don't know how to embed the video..

  8. #8
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRATHA View Post
    Jas,
    Thanks for the clarification. From what I can gather from the posts, chagois are more closely related to the karashigois loosely based on the fact that they are both not a mutation fish by not being an albino. Like most chagois, the karashigoi's color variation is vast. This makes the two variety in question overlap in colors that they produced. This overlap in color can be misleading I believe these fish can be passed off as either variety.
    Another thing I might add is that kigois are albino fish, making this variety absent of any sumi. Thus making bright yellow fish with black eyeris fall under the classification of a karashigoi.
    Some believed the Karashigoi are a result of crossing kigois and chagois.
    Here is a video of chagois in varying colors, the skin colors may fall under the color of a grey mustard.
    jumbochagoi.avi - YouTube
    I don't know how to embed the video..
    That is what I was told... A Karashigoi is just a cross between a Chagoi and Kigoi.


    I bought a dark-eyed Kigoi from this dealer... but after reading JR's response, I guess it is a yellow Karashigoi.


  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I hear you, JR. But, as Ricshaw points out, there are koi sold as Kigoi that are not Akame Kigoi.

    Regarding the origin of Karashigoi... In a Nichirin interview, Joji Konishi, the 'creator' of Karashigoi, keeps it a trade secret how the mustard koi was developed. He does hint, rather deceptively, I think, that the parents were a 'sort' of Kigoi. But, he also says that Karashi are entirely different from Kigoi, with solid coloration over the entire body, while Kigoi have a pale underside; and the color is a darker tone than the lemony yellow of Kigoi. The variety came from his work with muji koi obtained from a person who particularly focused on large single color koi. IMO, Karashi are just another color phase of the Chagoi group. I figure his 'sort of Kigoi' was a particular fish without red eyes. He happened to get some mustard yellow ones and came up with a new marketing label. But, Konishi isn't telling, so what do I know.....

  10. #10
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I hear you, JR. But, as Ricshaw points out, there are koi sold as Kigoi that are not Akame Kigoi.
    Mike,

    It was not sold to me as a "Kigoi".
    I honestly thought that I bought a Kigoi tosai.
    Weeks later I verified that the eyes were not red.

    Last edited by Brian; 01-12-2014 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Fixed broken YouTube link

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