Home | About Us | Contact Us


Koi Forum - Koi-Bito Magazine straight from Japan
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: What is the best koi food

  1. #11
    Tosai
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    20
    I have some FD Floating that I am waiting to start feeding again once my water warms up...

  2. #12
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    ***Nigel's pond was done in those early days (late 90s) when folks where just starting to figure out how to do air lines to bottom drain diffusers. ***
    It is telling how far koikeeping has come so quickly when the late 1990s are 'the early days'.

    NI is gone and the NI board is inactive, but so much of what has become accepted, common understanding of proper koikeeping can be traced to NI. Nigel did not invent the practices that have become known worldwide. He did spread an understanding of the concepts and their application in the real world. There were not very many 'proper koi ponds' in the late 1990s. There are far more now; and, more importantly, there are so many ponds whose owners strive to get to that goal as best they can within the constraints of time and budgets. The hobby in the West in particular, owes a great deal to Nigel and those who assisted in spreading the word about koikeeping vs pondkeeping, like JR. If somebody ever writes a history of koikeeping (as opposed to koi development), the publication of NI would be a good point for starting a new chapter.

    Query: How is the Blischok pond these days?

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    The Blischok pond is alive and well. But might be converted back to a more natural type pond with the focus on nature as opposed to koi. I've discussed new designs with the owner and it has been a blast shifting from ideas about a new marine outdoor system ( a marine reef viewed from 'above' along what would have been planted edges in the goldfish version of the future) with maybe a side window to view at the base of the stairs or from the train room in order to view the fish/sharks etc) , a collection of rare goldfish morphs and a series of planted features ( it rose from a large scale water garden in the beginning if you recall), to a hybrid of waterfalls and koi ponds for smaller specimens ( that's hard in Arizona where koi grow like weeds). The mind boggles when imagination and funds are unlimited! LOLs ( we do have a grand time talking about it!)
    In the end, the 'big girls' cruise the surface of a massive koi pond to this very day. Some are a meter now, by the way. JR

  4. #14
    Tategoi mtsklar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    311

    Koi Food ...... $31.75 per pound?

    Feeding raw shrimp? How much did you pay per pound?

    Raw shrimp per 100g
    http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4589

    83% water
    13% protein
    0% fiber
    1.01g fat
    carbohydrate .91
    0% vitamin C
    .015 Riboflavin

    566 mg Sodium (Na)
    244 mg Phosphorus (P)

    Assuming a market price of $7.00 per pound

    $7 X 4.536 = $31.75 per pound of shrimp protein

    (453.6 grams to 1 pound)

  5. #15
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Quote Originally Posted by mtsklar View Post
    Feeding raw shrimp? How much did you pay per pound?

    Raw shrimp per 100g
    http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/4589

    83% water
    13% protein
    0% fiber
    1.01g fat
    carbohydrate .91
    0% vitamin C
    .015 Riboflavin
    566 mg Sodium (Na)
    244 mg Phosphorus (P)

    Assuming a market price of $7.00 per pound

    $7 X 4.536 = $31.75 per pound of shrimp protein

    (453.6 grams to 1 pound)
    You can get unpeeled tiger shrimp ( frozen) pretty cheap- but I fear you are comparing fish food protein ( heated and processed) with fresh protein? Don't make that mistake as there are two steps to the analysis--
    1) the amount of protein on a bag level
    2) the amount the fish can actually use

    The metabolism of a cold blooded fish like a koi breaks its digestion down as follows---
    Ingestion
    digestion
    assimilation

    So it what is assimilated that counts. And fresh protein ( along with additional benefits of fresh vitamins) is most important.
    Just do a simple test-- feed fresh food for a week and watch the quality of your pond water ( ORP/oxygen levels. algal growth, waste in sump and DOC content on the water surface). Then feed only high protien koi pellets for a week. Do the same tests and also test for phosphates and nitrAtes ( although watching changes in your algal type/growth will also be a short cut to these readings). The lesson will be clear. JR

  6. #16
    Tategoi mtsklar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    311
    Different types of protein are digested at varying rates. The protein from soybean meal for example is only 74% digestible whereas the protein from a high quality fishmeal like herring is 97% digested. Pellets are also composed of carbohydrates; these play a role as well. Carbohydrates in most pellet feeds are at much higher percentage than what is found natural foods like midge larvae. The carbohydrates (although a cheap energy source) will reduce protein digestibility when they make up even 30% of a pellet.

    A pellet comprised of animal source proteins would be superior to one formulated with field crops. But of course we did these tests more than 5 years ago now.

    If you think that pellets are high protein, consider the dry weight analysis of shrimp at approx. 75% protein. Hopefully we aren’t thinking our koi need water in the diet?

    In nearly all cases shrimp meal when compared to fishmeal, produced lower feed conversion and growth.
    Matt Sklar

  7. #17
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    Matt, you're confusing yourself-- processed to processed and fresh to fresh. ( as direct comparison)
    Fresh shrimp is highly digested and HIGHLY ASSIMILATED. It is the absorption through the gut- that is key. Water hydrates, otherwise it has little to do with the topic-- your pellet is hydrated when the fish chews it and crushes it with its teeth so from that stand point all fish food contains water! LOLs.
    A koi's digestive tract is a long primitive digesting organ in place of an evolved specialized organ like the stomach. So it is not the pellet content that is the thing, it is how much will be digested in that long gut in a short time that counts. And then how much will be used.
    Please note that in the wild, carp do not eat pellets. Pellets were created in the 1950s. Koi were created in the 1800s and carp were created in 40,000 B.C. So pellets are only 60 years old and the carp as a modern species is over 40,000 years old. That means it has been eating pellets for .00014% of the species life history. Trust me, fresh food is their staple.
    They are scavanger omnivores that eat live and dead animal meat and also ruffage and greens that they can get some nutrition from. They also eat bacteria, mud, decayed plant material that they can get amino acids from and dead animal proteins in the process of deanimation ( complete with high bacteria counts!).

    So shrimp, earthworms and fresh fish ( including canned tuna when prepared right ) are the best. What these food items do lack however is the balanced diet provided by the pellet. They also do not meet the needs of a busy owner's life style.
    Dogs, cats and horses can all do quite well on pelleted feeds- no doubt. But supplements of meat, canned foods, grazing for grazing animals are highly beneficial. They are just not as convenient or as 'complete' as processed specialized foods.
    JR

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,642
    I wanted to 'flesh out' this subject a little further (pun intended). I mentioned that koi are not carnivores but rather omnivores. They benefit from a balanced diet as opposed to say trout which are true carnivores.
    On the subject of domesticated carp or koi--- pellets are designed to meet all the needs of a carp in captivity. Except for vitamins and micro nutrients which are damaged and soon lacking due to heating techniques and also storage (vitamins are lost with time and exposure).
    Fresh foods are the way to bring the diet back up to superior from basic staple.
    If you spend any time at any of the great grow out facilities of Japan you will see that 'best fish' and special fish as well as customer’s fish that are being groomed for show futures, you will see that diet of pellets is supplemented. Some of this is cultural and based on old breeder tales, but much of it is simply to put volume on koi and to keep luster high and whites very white. Or to provide a more natural color food source.
    It is not unusual to see large trays of steamed veggies and starches fed to the very best show fish.
    I use most wheat germ pellets in my collection. But to get the natural luster high and to keep the beni from becoming dull and blotchy in adult Gosanke, I supplement with fresh foods as taught to me by the Japanese breeders. It may be a case of monkey see, monkey do, but I do like the results. And I know from breeding other animals all my life, that 'whole foods' and fresh foods make all the difference.
    In lower forms of life, the right diet can mean the difference between life and death and also between the ability to breed and not breed. We have no such problems with koi but still, it reminds me that needs that are not demonstrated overtly may still be needs.
    In marine fish we use flake food- it is balanced and provides all basic nutrition. But if you want to avoid negative changes in color and a thing called lateral line disease or hole in the head disease, you feed fresh foods as well as processed foods. This is especially true of the herbivores.
    In all the aquarium hobbies we feed frozen fresh foods and whole foods. It is only in koi that we feel processed foods are all that are needed. It is an odd thing and I do believe it is a matter of time before the hobbyist is offered koi food in more fresh forms as a commercial product. One of the obstacles here is scale and price. But other than that, it is coming at some point, even if as only a test marketing product. JR

  9. #19
    Nisai cookcpu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    I wanted to 'flesh out' this subject a little further (pun intended). I mentioned that koi are not carnivores but rather omnivores. They benefit from a balanced diet as opposed to say trout which are true carnivores.
    On the subject of domesticated carp or koi--- pellets are designed to meet all the needs of a carp in captivity. Except for vitamins and micro nutrients which are damaged and soon lacking due to heating techniques and also storage (vitamins are lost with time and exposure).
    Fresh foods are the way to bring the diet back up to superior from basic staple.
    If you spend any time at any of the great grow out facilities of Japan you will see that 'best fish' and special fish as well as customer’s fish that are being groomed for show futures, you will see that diet of pellets is supplemented. Some of this is cultural and based on old breeder tales, but much of it is simply to put volume on koi and to keep luster high and whites very white. Or to provide a more natural color food source.
    It is not unusual to see large trays of steamed veggies and starches fed to the very best show fish.
    I use most wheat germ pellets in my collection. But to get the natural luster high and to keep the beni from becoming dull and blotchy in adult Gosanke, I supplement with fresh foods as taught to me by the Japanese breeders. It may be a case of monkey see, monkey do, but I do like the results. And I know from breeding other animals all my life, that 'whole foods' and fresh foods make all the difference.
    In lower forms of life, the right diet can mean the difference between life and death and also between the ability to breed and not breed. We have no such problems with koi but still, it reminds me that needs that are not demonstrated overtly may still be needs.
    In marine fish we use flake food- it is balanced and provides all basic nutrition. But if you want to avoid negative changes in color and a thing called lateral line disease or hole in the head disease, you feed fresh foods as well as processed foods. This is especially true of the herbivores.
    In all the aquarium hobbies we feed frozen fresh foods and whole foods. It is only in koi that we feel processed foods are all that are needed. It is an odd thing and I do believe it is a matter of time before the hobbyist is offered koi food in more fresh forms as a commercial product. One of the obstacles here is scale and price. But other than that, it is coming at some point, even if as only a test marketing product. JR
    JR, I used to feed spinach to my Top View Ranchu. I wonder will the spinach be suitable for Koi.

  10. #20
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    11,128
    There is just no question that live foods are best, fresh frozen formerly live foods are next best, and pellets come in third.

    The puny little brine shrimp has very low nutritive value in percentages, but it sure is more effective in raising robust fry to adulthood than much higher protein processed foods. My little guppies teach that lesson regularly. I no longer try to keep a brine shrimp hatchery. Too much mess and bother for me these days. But, I find frozen baby brine, as poor a substitute as it is, still performs better than any processed food... even the dust from very high protein koi pellets.

    It is not convenient to feed my koi earthworms, shrimp or other such foods regularly. I wish there was a convenient way to do so. I'm sure it would do them good. All they get is an occasional treat, which they sure like. Such excitement! They like to eat just to eat. Koi are programmed by Nature that way. When it is live or fresh food, they clearly enjoy it more.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Best Koi Food?
    By KoiStory3 in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-16-2013, 09:17 AM
  2. koi food?
    By saycoo in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-20-2011, 01:06 PM
  3. FD Koi Food
    By Lam Nguyen in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 04-24-2011, 10:45 AM
  4. koi food
    By wiguna danny in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-07-2010, 10:59 PM
  5. What makes a koi food a good koi food?
    By aquitori in forum Main Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-25-2006, 02:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Articles - Sitemap - FAQs and Rules

KB Footer Graphic
Straight from Japan... For the serious hobbyist!
All content and images copyright of: Koi-bito.com