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Thread: Learning the shiro...

  1. #1
    Sansai monscine's Avatar
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    Learning the shiro...

    I have never enough learning the shiro...

    I've bought this shiro about two years ago when visiting the Omosako farm. That time I've been impressed with her body conformation that hold the kohaku body line so strong. After some hard dealing with Takahiro Omosako that didn't want to sell the shiro at first, finally I could buy her. Now after some years passed, she was sent to my dealer and now still improving her sumi. Anybody has experienced of this kind of sumi on shiro? Will the sumi darken and solid in the future as this shiro already about gosai of her age?

    Here's the video of her from last month...it was taken about night already, so a bit dark on the surrounding...



    PS. is the you tube link broken??? I've put the link inside but no you tube screen on the thread shown
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG_WRz8RmHw

  2. #2
    Tategoi bobbysuzanna's Avatar
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    Not the best video with how dark it is, however the body type looks great. What's the specifics on this koi, age, size, breeding, etc.
    I love shiros, but have had horrible luck with secondary hi from omosakos. And yes I know they come from showas, but when you spend a lot of money on shiros I'd expect better.
    Bet a nice concrete pond would bring out some sumi for you!
    Best wishes and post some more pictures and video with better light!

  3. #3
    Daihonmei
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    I'm also a fan of shiro. But shiro is a bit of an illusion as the ground and sumi ( opposites) exaggerates the shiroji impression. The very same shiroji on kohaku exists yet it looks different. And I have no doubt that grand world class shiro muji of the very same type are produced every year and thrown into a ditch at culling time!
    So shiro is based in the effect of good shiroji ( albeit a diffence between white base and black base). The secret is in the transparency, the orientation of collegin fibers and reflective cells within the transparency. It is that simple and that complicated. JR

  4. #4
    Sansai monscine's Avatar
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    What I mean is will the sumi comes up? I bought this shiro 2 years ago with condition that the sumi is still below the surface. She was sansai that time. When I took this video, she's gosai now with a bit more sumi comes up. Compare to her siblings and other tosai/nisai age shiros which already have solid black sumi, I'm a bit worry that the sunken sumi would never surface to the top. Anyone ever experienced a condition like this?? That the sumi would still becomes solid and surfacing even at on going or the future age??

  5. #5
    Tosai
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    She does have a great body structure, and even in the dark video you can see the quality of the shiroji. We have an Omosako that is now eight years old, and the sumi is still coming up. Keep the faith!

    Bryan Bateman

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by monscine View Post
    What I mean is will the sumi comes up? I bought this shiro 2 years ago with condition that the sumi is still below the surface. She was sansai that time. When I took this video, she's gosai now with a bit more sumi comes up. Compare to her siblings and other tosai/nisai age shiros which already have solid black sumi, I'm a bit worry that the sunken sumi would never surface to the top. Anyone ever experienced a condition like this?? That the sumi would still becomes solid and surfacing even at on going or the future age??
    So sumi doesn't really 'come up' literially. In a baby showa for instance where this is best seen, the basic gene code is for black- that is the dominating gene and so we call it blacked based 'as if' the skin was really black. In baby showa this black tends to disappear for a while as the fish grows from fry to fingerling. The reason for this is that the skin itself is developing and separating into different layers and thicker individual layers of skin. As this process slows down ( growth in general slows) the dermis components, including color, begin to mature in terms of genetic expression. There is where color dominace once again expresses itself-- only this time in a dense and concentrated way-- the sumi cells are now large, layered or clustered and more numerous.
    Both showa and shiro tend to develop their sumi ( the sumi 'comes up') from front to back or from back to front. And it is not unusual to see the good female with very dense and bellowy dermis to mask the sumi within layers of very translucent white skin. If the dermis has almost clear fibers then the sumi will be very lacqued and strong. Do not confuse this with weak sumi, male scattered sumi or developing sumi.
    In the end, this is the fun of studying color development. And it is both predictable and full of surprises. JR

  7. #7
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    from which parent set or line does she come from? Some of the newer Omosako parents have young with the sumi up and in place already thier first year.

    With Omosako, I like the "Panda" line, which like your Koi takes years for the
    sumi to finally fill in. the Shiro Utsuri I have in my pond today is from that line.

    I think part of the fun of raising SU and Showa is the anticiption of seeing them come slowly into their own.

    Another japanese breeder I was always fascinated with his Shiro utsuri was Igarashi Kazuto. His tategoi tosai were all white, and it wasn't until the second year that you got a look at the sumi. How he knew which ones to save and what to look for, always made me wish I could learn.

    I like your koi very much! thanks for posting
    Dick Benbow

  8. #8
    Sansai monscine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    So sumi doesn't really 'come up' literially. In a baby showa for instance where this is best seen, the basic gene code is for black- that is the dominating gene and so we call it blacked based 'as if' the skin was really black. In baby showa this black tends to disappear for a while as the fish grows from fry to fingerling. The reason for this is that the skin itself is developing and separating into different layers and thicker individual layers of skin. As this process slows down ( growth in general slows) the dermis components, including color, begin to mature in terms of genetic expression. There is where color dominace once again expresses itself-- only this time in a dense and concentrated way-- the sumi cells are now large, layered or clustered and more numerous.
    Both showa and shiro tend to develop their sumi ( the sumi 'comes up') from front to back or from back to front. And it is not unusual to see the good female with very dense and bellowy dermis to mask the sumi within layers of very translucent white skin. If the dermis has almost clear fibers then the sumi will be very lacqued and strong. Do not confuse this with weak sumi, male scattered sumi or developing sumi.
    In the end, this is the fun of studying color development. And it is both predictable and full of surprises. JR
    Jim, what I'm afraid of is that this sumi will be kind of kagesumi. If it is, then it will lays there like what we see now. When I bought her, there's only a little solid sumi on her dorsal fin area. Looking to the sumi right, yes it developed, but to the level that I'm worry of not to be solid. The body conformation is still there though I think ozutsu area a bit thinner than when I bought her.

  9. #9
    Sansai monscine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick benbow View Post
    from which parent set or line does she come from? Some of the newer Omosako parents have young with the sumi up and in place already thier first year.

    With Omosako, I like the "Panda" line, which like your Koi takes years for the
    sumi to finally fill in. the Shiro Utsuri I have in my pond today is from that line.

    I think part of the fun of raising SU and Showa is the anticiption of seeing them come slowly into their own.

    Another japanese breeder I was always fascinated with his Shiro utsuri was Igarashi Kazuto. His tategoi tosai were all white, and it wasn't until the second year that you got a look at the sumi. How he knew which ones to save and what to look for, always made me wish I could learn.

    I like your koi very much! thanks for posting
    Thanks for your appreciation, DB. If I'm not mistaken, yes she is from Panda bloodline. I'll find her photograph when I bought her on my PC when I get back to the town.

    I don't have shiro utsuri that many, that's why I can't tell what she is gonna be. What I want to know is whether she will still have that body conformation after years...without 'bottle neck syndrome' that usually happen on shiro...and would the sumi appears as what the breeder claimed.

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by monscine View Post
    Jim, what I'm afraid of is that this sumi will be kind of kagesumi. If it is, then it will lays there like what we see now. When I bought her, there's only a little solid sumi on her dorsal fin area. Looking to the sumi right, yes it developed, but to the level that I'm worry of not to be solid. The body conformation is still there though I think ozutsu area a bit thinner than when I bought her.

    Not to nitpick but kage sumi is a patterned sumi. This is an unfinished sumi. Not strong enough gene expression ( hopefully 'yet') to make for finished sumi.
    This of course can be the heart break of shiro-- sumi that never forms a true mass of depth and cluster.
    There are two reviews on can do on sumi

    1) what type of sumi is it, What is it's nature. Fortunately you know the line so you know the general quality of the breeders sumi. But remember, the trait of a line is a tendency and not a guarantee. You have fundamental good sumi on this fish and it is an issue of finish. Some fish are not blessed with sumi of the right type, grade/quality or thickness. In that case, you can't expect a sow's ear to ever become a silk purse. And that sow's sumi is onlt destine to degrenerate quickly even it looks finished as a two year old

    2) the second review after orientationing one's self to the type, grade and general potential thickness of sumi is to determine if the fish is following the development pace and hurdles of its siblings and peers. As I mentioned before, LOTS of showa and shiro have killer sumi trait in the tail area or the body but remain 'smokey' on the head and nose all their lives. Others are the exact opposite and the head is killer as is the body but the peduncle and tail area NEVER finish. I know a trick to help this along but it has to be done when they are very young.

    JR

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