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Thread: Water Changes

  1. #221
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
    I am not one to throw around money but seeing that the pond is built on a slope I would need very little excavation. Absent earthworks, the bricks and mortar is not going to add up to that much. I hope your experience does not prove my budget calculation wrong
    Do the fish justify the effort?

    Garfield

  2. #222
    Oyagoi yerrag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
    Thank you for your input yerrag. I forgot about mosquitoes!

    These are the reasons for considering the irrigation tank:


    1. I cannot pump 15 000 liters (4 000 gallons) from the pond without dropping water level significantly and causing (IMO) stress for the fish. I can schedule irrigation through-out the week but would need 15 000 liters at least one day out of 7.
    2. I want a daytime flow-through of fresh water and the only way to do that is for the freshwater inflow to push pond water over the overflow and into the irrigation tank. This way I can justify adding far more fresh water than what would otherwise be possible.


    My project is still in the planning stage and I appreciate the different points of view.
    Jacques, on the day you have to use 15,000 liters of water for irrigation, you still could opt for using mostly source water to fill your needs for irrigation. Unless, of course, you prefer to use pond water for its nutrients to the plants. Then that would be a different story.

    But what are your reasons for needing to use 15,000 liters of water for irrigation all in one day? Couldn't you stagger the water usage over a week? You'll just be scheduling different sectors for different days of the week for irrigation. Then again, you know your needs best.

  3. #223
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
    Do the fish justify the effort?

    Garfield
    The current and future Koi populations will benefit for the next 20 years. And I foresee problems with out water supply going forward. This setup means that I am not using any water for the koi pond during the problematic parts of the year as I am using water that would otherwise go to irrigation.

  4. #224
    Tosai
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    Gentlemen, I am worried that we are not on point anymore. This discussion is very valuable to me but possibly better suited for the Pond Construction section of this board. You gave me lots to think about and I thank you for that.

  5. #225
    Tosai
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    The question I am hoping you will discuss with me and that pertains to Water Changes, is this:

    Is it wise to increase pond size (by enlarging either the pond or the filter chambers) if the volume of the weekly water change is NOT going to be increased to account for the bigger pond? Nothing else changes (stocking, feeding, etc).

    sacicu (and MCA supported this) suggested that more water is better. But so far no comments about a water change of X liters (or gallons) having a smaller impact in a large pond than it has in a small pond.

    I tried a simple spreadsheet to model the ppm pollution that results in the two scenarios and, based on that, the equilibrium ppm is lower for the smaller pond! Spreadsheets have their place but I am not prepared to go with that - I prefer to follow science and experience.

  6. #226
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
    The question I am hoping you will discuss with me and that pertains to Water Changes, is this:

    Is it wise to increase pond size (by enlarging either the pond or the filter chambers) if the volume of the weekly water change is NOT going to be increased to account for the bigger pond? Nothing else changes (stocking, feeding, etc).

    sacicu (and MCA supported this) suggested that more water is better. But so far no comments about a water change of X liters (or gallons) having a smaller impact in a large pond than it has in a small pond.

    I tried a simple spreadsheet to model the ppm pollution that results in the two scenarios and, based on that, the equilibrium ppm is lower for the smaller pond! Spreadsheets have their place but I am not prepared to go with that - I prefer to follow science and experience.
    We talk about water changes in terms of percentages of pond volume, but that is not really the best way to analyze the need. The real question to answer is how much dilution is needed to get the pond water where you want it. If the larger pond has no more fish (i.e., no more food given) and no more 'in-puts' of leaves and such, then a lower percentage water change should get you to the same place. The challenge is that with more volume the chances are pretty good that your koi will grow better, and larger koi eat more. If you have the will power to limit your population to what results in the water quality goals you set being attained with no more water being used, then you get better koi development. Most of us, myself included, have difficulty staying within a self-imposed stocking limit. There will always be another koi that catches your eye and makes you think 'I have room for just one more'.

  7. #227
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
    The question I am hoping you will discuss with me and that pertains to Water Changes, is this:

    Is it wise to increase pond size (by enlarging either the pond or the filter chambers) if the volume of the weekly water change is NOT going to be increased to account for the bigger pond? Nothing else changes (stocking, feeding, etc).

    sacicu (and MCA supported this) suggested that more water is better. But so far no comments about a water change of X liters (or gallons) having a smaller impact in a large pond than it has in a small pond.

    I tried a simple spreadsheet to model the ppm pollution that results in the two scenarios and, based on that, the equilibrium ppm is lower for the smaller pond! Spreadsheets have their place but I am not prepared to go with that - I prefer to follow science and experience.


    Aside from the reason of "the solution of dilution" is more better, there is this thing of stability. With a fewer percent of water change , there is less change in parameters such as Ph and temperature changes.

    Take note also if there is a sudden increase in ammonia for example stress released by a few koi, more feeding, spawning, more time in between cleaning the filters, the more water volume will always win out. You dont need a spreadsheet to know this.

    Base also on my experience, the higher the water change percent the skin of the koi is less likely to develop to its full potential.

  8. #228
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by sacicu View Post
    Base also on my experience, the higher the water change percent the skin of the koi is less likely to develop to its full potential.
    Are you saying you get better results with skin development when you do LESS / SMALLER water changes?

  9. #229
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    We talk about water changes in terms of percentages of pond volume, but that is not really the best way to analyze the need. The real question to answer is how much dilution is needed to get the pond water where you want it.
    So for a fixed volume of water replaced each week, the small pond will benefit more seeing that the fresh water will dilute the pond better. It is just so counter intuitive and does not take account of the (very good) point about the stability and solvent capacity of a larger water body. I do take your point though, it is about where you are and where you want to be and how much fresh water is needed to get you there. Thank you.

  10. #230
    Jumbo sacicu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
    Are you saying you get better results with skin development when you do LESS / SMALLER water changes?
    If you do more frequent but less % of water change as compared to more sudden water change but less frequent with the volume of water change per month same then the former gets better results when it comes to skin development based on my experience.

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