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Thread: Beginers to koi

  1. #11
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    So, does that mean you were just taunting us? It worked!

    Next subject for beginners buying koi: The thousand gallon pond seems really big compared to your prior lily pond puddle, but no more than 4 koi, please. Don't argue that they are no bigger than a goldfish. Just 4. Pick them carefully and cross your fingers that nothing goes terribly out of kilter, because for 1000 gals., 4 is overstocked.

  2. #12
    Sansai Bob Hart's Avatar
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    Mike/Paul,

    For beniners it's a very difficult concept. There are too many views/opinions and the advice given to many of them, although with the best of intensions, if often confusing to them. Often advice given means the person 'buys' something from the person giving the advice, this then having knock on effects.

    Some Koi magazines seem to also give poor advice year after year, with these magazines aimed at those new or nearly new to Koi keeping. Wrong advice means issues encured. Those that are wiling to learn more stay with the hobby, many dont though and feel ripped off.

    I didn't mean to have a go at Paul, it's just it is very difficult to make statements that are 100% true. They dont fit all circumsatances.

    Many people know I keep Koi and know I have dont so for many years and they think I'm therefore an expert. What I actually know, is what I've experienced and learnt from others and therefore put together my own opinions, and my knowledge you could fit on the end of a pin.
    I'm often asked "I'm going to build a Koi pond, what do I need?". One of the first things I try and do is put people off due to the expence involved and once some details are discussed, many then admit to just wanting a 'pond' with goldfish - but some of those koi would be nice. Those nice Koi would rip up all of their plants, dirty their water (usually because their pond will have lots of muck in it) and therefore they wont quite have the idilic pond they see in magazines. I usually advise them that there are lots of pretty goldfish, commets, shubnkins, etc in the garden centres for them to keep.
    Those that still want to to persue the Koi route, are those that further discussions can take place with. This is where the advice bit comes into play and again the difficulties, which Paul has started this thread about, come into play.

    Hope you dont mind me prattling on a bit, just trying to make the beginner point - it's very difficult.
    Regards, Bob
    ><{{{{> ><{{{{> ><{{{{>
    <}}}}>< <}}}}><

  3. #13
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    You raise an interesting subject: What to say to the watergardener who sees a koi at the garden center or aquarium shop or a glossy ad in a waterlily catalog. A few retailers will discourage the impulse purchase, but most will simply say, "sure, you have room for three. They're small." And, most folks with koi will not discourage the purchase. They may suggest the need to put large rocks around the lilies, or that better filtration will be needed as the fish grow, but not: "Don't! Koi do not belong in a watergarden. One or the other will eventually fail." Even if the particular koikeeper believes it will be a failure, usually there is silence on the fundamental point. Why? The newbie is so excited, it is tough to rain on their parade.

    But, as long as the koi involved is inexpensive, what's wrong? Bet most koikeepers started the same way. Who is going to build a $5,000 pond for a fish that's a few inches long that they've never kept before? Yes, the newbie will experience disappointment; but will al;so experience that great feeling of a shiny ogon swimming under a lilypad. It may have splotches of discoloration, would never have avoided culling in Japan, and will be dead in a year if not sooner.... but the newbie will learn. And, if the learning is a process the person enjoys, and the work of pond maintenance does not seem like cleansing the Augean stables, and the pleasure in the beauty of nature is great, so what if there is wasted money along the way? I read all the advice about building the truly proper koi pond from the beginning, and I know it is good advice for a person who is hooked on koi. However, I also know that I'd never have owned a koi if the first 1.5" ogon costing maybe $1.99 had come with a swimming pool price tag! Have I wasted money over the years? In a sense, yes. But, it would have been a far greater waste to build the proper pond etc and decide 3 months later that getting gunky filter mess on one's fingers is simply too absurd to ever endure.

    So what's wrong with new hobbyists getting recruited by folks with self-interest in doing so? Not much different than the way the world works generally. The sad part is that the koi that should have been culled, but instead gets a few months of life, then suffers a terrible death. Somebody needs to weigh the moral scales, including some measure for the teaching of the newbie. Having gone through that process myself in 1978, I am not the one to do the weighing. If I had not gone through it, I'd not be keeping koi today.

    If only the world could be perfect and the earthworms did not die when fed to the koi.

  4. #14
    Nisai paulw's Avatar
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    I too was new once and made some small to large mistakes,if it were not for forums such as this and poeple who were willing to help me along inspite of my lack of knowing what I was doing, and that is a understatement I just jumped in with both feet feeling as you stated they are only gold fish/carp." How hard can this be, boy was I wrong and almost sunk! I feel for others that make mistakes as I did I felt very foolish at times.
    My cousin even killed 5- 6 to 8 inch koi in one night. I had never seen him cry it was a first.
    But there were many to help him and myself now I love passing on what was once give to me becuase of those that helped me and I am by NO means a PRO now, but I can care for my koi in there pond, bog, etc. that houses them, my koi In crystal clear almost perfect water. No longer do I think of them as "Gold Fish/Carp." They are my FRIENDS! i care for there water and they care for me with many hours, days, years of peace! A place were I sit to forget about a world that is running so fast, it seem to crash me into a new wall each day.

    Those mistakes were in the past and I shake my head in disbelief and shame over some of the mistakes that were made. I will always be greatfull for those that helped me that knew nothing of what he was doing thinking, all a pond is, is a over grown aquarium with carp! How hard can that be?" and for not stateing what I know they were thinking as they answered my questionsi know shaking there heads all the time in disbelief, but in the end weve all got to start somewhere and that somewhere is at the begining with as much help and knowledge from forums, books, videos, where ever we can.

    thanks for listining
    paul

  5. #15
    Nisai
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    Thanks Mike - I've saved your post to reread, since it deals with the crux of a real ethical issue (at least for me). Everyone does have to start somewhere. I'm a rank novice (after 8 years) and there aren't many good resources in my area for beginning koi keepers. Without forums like this I would still be clueless.

  6. #16
    Sansai Andrew's Avatar
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    Paul,
    As I said to you on Koichat, but you've not yet responded, where you have again duplicated a post, this is a DISCUSSION forum, as is KoiChat, they are not noticeboards.
    As you refer to in your latest post above, video's, books, clubs, this is where to do your base research and when you have queries bring those queries to a discussion forum such as this.
    How many beginners do you think will browse a discussion forum when looking for specific information, not many but maybe some but they won't have anywhere near the success they will have if they go to the index section of a book. When they've digested that and have further specific questions or queries or require clarification then these forums sing!
    That's my views/thoughts on the type of post you've made within this, and the KoiChat, forum.
    As regards the content of what you post, where is it from? I'd say in any event it's way out of date.
    Andrew

    "Gentlemen prefer ponds"

  7. #17
    Nisai paulw's Avatar
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    id like to know how you think this is a notice as i dont and regarding the forums how do you explain that not many newcomers would enter forums.
    theres as much information on forums as there is in books plus fellow koi-keepers are there to give there first hand advise and how they started and what they encounted as beginers, yes you can get advise from books im not saying any different to that but how much info is there in books today about the modern systems, there my thoughts any way.

    paul

  8. #18
    Daihonmei
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    Ah the "E" ticket.
    More and more of the population is going directly to the 'net for answers. Books are pretty, but dated. Read a 10 year old book and you'll design a pond with a gravel filter.
    And this site and others give up to date archives (oxymoron, lol). Cyberfins just collected info and has no MB. I read their data to understand Vortex chambers.
    Books give a very limited and dated perspective. So "books" are not the way to go. Do it all on the 'net. Read the archives and on line libraries, and ask questions...
    my generation has a subconscious opinion of the need to have books and magazines that won't be there in the next generation.

    My 2cents

  9. #19
    Nisai paulw's Avatar
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    thats exacly what i was saying about books, you cant beat the forums and the members that are on here for the advise that you need, books are all right to a certain extent.
    weve all been beginers havent we and many have had to learn the hard way, you dont just build a big pond spend x amount of money if your learning.

    paul

  10. #20
    Sansai Andrew's Avatar
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    Paul,
    I think it's a notice because you post as a notice. You state "Beginers to koi" (sp) and "How to by koi" (sp).
    You don't say, this is my opinion, this is what I found, what have you found, do, think etc.
    But you're quite right books do date. As already asked for but not yet answered, please give me the date of the article you posted, what was the date of the book or journal that came from?

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