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Thread: GC A vs GC B

  1. #11
    Daihonmei
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    My rant on this----

    This was a very well intentioned effort to

    1) create a more 'fair' koi competition. More considerate of lesser varieties and a desire to elevate the status of lesser varieties

    2) to spread more awards around to make the exhibitor fell good and to encourage more exhibitors and maybe get 'repeat' exhibitors to come back to shows as they had such a positive experience. A very nice idea and not like giving a trophy to everyone who played soccer on a given day.

    I have been a show chairman, exhibitor, judge and netter. And I have judged over 70 shows at this point in my career. I have seen it all folks-- rules about kids entering parents koi, rules about longfins, rules about shiro utsuri, rules about size changes, rules about new varieties and where to enter them, rules limiting entry, special awards for pet koi, awards for beginners, awards for children, special awards for favorite varieties of founders etc.
    This is all good, fun and often an effort to make people happy and make the show 'more fair'. Laudable, no doubt


    But where the rubber meets the road, there can be only one. Only one GC. The very best fish in the show.

    A shiro Utsuri is not a gosanke. Repeat-- not a gosanke. Gosanke means three ( the three foundation families of the shogun). The pouring in of gosanke blood into other extensions of the family nishikigoi has indeed improved the other varieties but we can't call them all Gosanke.
    Now in a koi show, the competition of the day might very well have a non gosanke winning the show! So the GC B could be the second best nonGosanke in the show?
    For folks who like the idea of equality in varieties, remember-- the koi show is many things--and member involvement is high up there as is competition. But none of these motives should undermine the subliminal education points of a koi show. To embold an exhibitor that wins GC B with a beautiful Yamabuki in a non competitive show and have them think they shared the show's GC stage with the ringer showa that was flown in from Japan is an exercise in misteaching.
    Next month is the time for the London Olympics. The winners will stand on three boxes to receive their awards. Only one will stand taller in the middle. There is reason for that. In the end, there can be only one. It is the ultimate visual lesson of the koi show. JR

  2. #12
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Knowing that our club will debate for this matter and I have posted for opinions, not many response indeed. There are Pro and Con. But I want to make one thing clear is that, Gosanke is just Kohaku, Sanke and Showa.
    Utsuri is Non-Gosanke.

    --Dinh

  3. #13
    MCA
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    What about having a single Grand Champion and below that single top koi you have Reserve Champion A and Reserve Champion B. After them comes the size Champions (Baby, Mature, Adult, Jumbo).

  4. #14
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    What about having a single Grand Champion and below that single top koi you have Reserve Champion A and Reserve Champion B. After them comes the size Champions (Baby, Mature, Adult, Jumbo).
    what about leaving it as it is!

  5. #15
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    what about leaving it as it is!
    I think they are trying to encourage more Jumbo Koi entries.

  6. #16
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    I think they are trying to encourage more Jumbo Koi entries.

    O, I 'get' the motivation! I had hoped I made that clear in my first post. EVERY show committee ever organized wants to do something special. It is laudable. But great intentions can really get off track in regards to the educational value of the show when the desire to make an impact swamps the lesson.
    There are SO many ways to work within the structure of the show. One is to emphasize a variety with special awards. Another is to issuse a challenge to members to bring the largest fish.
    At the end of the day, every first place fish that takes that award over 10-15 competitors in say "bekko" is a special fish. IF the competitors are also excellent then the 1st place award is like a great football game where two excllent teams truly battel it out right to the two minute warning-- THOSE are the great competition. So like two fighters that pound one another with stategy and 'bombs' right up to the final bell, a good koi show has stiff competition where one beautiful karawi is outdone by an even MORE beautiful kawari. Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! JR
    Please, anyone, please tell me where I have it wrong?

  7. #17
    MCA
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    Jim, relax.

    I am all for a show keeping the traditional layered awards starting with a single GC. But if a show committee is determined to do a A & B somewhere in the award stack....it should not be on the top fish (GC) level. Either a fish is the single top fish at the show....or it is not.

  8. #18
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I have stayed out of this discussion, but JR's rant motivates me to post my rather radical view on judging awards. I would not have a 'B' division and I would not have move-ups. A GC Kohaku would also be 'Best Kohaku', and if in the largest size would also be 'Best Mature'. Having won a few best in variety awards with Showa and Sanke that were beaten in the competition by other Showa and Sanke... in one instance 2 other Showa, I can say those awards have no meaning to me and it is rather silly to have someone congratulate me on having the 'Best Showa'. I feel compelled to explain it really was not. I have seen GC, Reserve GC and Best Mature all go to Kohaku, with 'Best Kohaku' going to one that placed 4th. How do folks take such results seriously?

    I know my approach has no hope of being adopted. Nobody club would seriously consider it. Even discussion would be divisive. Folks just plain like the idea of spreading awards around. If it was adopted, a best in variety award would have greater stature and a first place ribbon would really be a first place. Having a distant finisher get an award for 'best' of anything mis-teaches and misleads. Shows and judging are about competition, but most awards are about something else. And, people like it that way.

  9. #19
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    I have stayed out of this discussion, but JR's rant motivates me to post my rather radical view on judging awards. I would not have a 'B' division and I would not have move-ups. A GC Kohaku would also be 'Best Kohaku', and if in the largest size would also be 'Best Mature'. Having won a few best in variety awards with Showa and Sanke that were beaten in the competition by other Showa and Sanke... in one instance 2 other Showa, I can say those awards have no meaning to me and it is rather silly to have someone congratulate me on having the 'Best Showa'. I feel compelled to explain it really was not. I have seen GC, Reserve GC and Best Mature all go to Kohaku, with 'Best Kohaku' going to one that placed 4th. How do folks take such results seriously?

    I know my approach has no hope of being adopted. Nobody club would seriously consider it. Even discussion would be divisive. Folks just plain like the idea of spreading awards around. If it was adopted, a best in variety award would have greater stature and a first place ribbon would really be a first place. Having a distant finisher get an award for 'best' of anything mis-teaches and misleads. Shows and judging are about competition, but most awards are about something else. And, people like it that way.
    Mike, I think that your now extensive career as an exhibitor a show koi has brought you to this place and your current outlook. You will find that the ZNA show system ( the one that all others are built upon) begins to make more and more sense. Much like the US constitution, you being to appreciate the simple design, yet wisdom, of the ZNA judging system!
    I am HIGHLY tolerant and chartiable when it comes to the way Amercian koi shows have evolved. I really am. I get that part of the fun is to try and reinvent the wheel and build the better mouse trap! And when you get new show committees with enthusiasum, it is hard not to cooperate with a positive minded volunteer. So the concept of the show can certainly be 'bent' here and ther without fear of breaking. But the lesson needs to be protected at a point.
    Indeed, many of the highly motivated show chairs of the past are no longer in the hobby! Yet the structure of the koi show and its fundamental lessons go on. Something to think about--- JR

  10. #20
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Seriously, no one that really shows koi believes that their B class win is as impressive as the same award on the A side. You won't ever find a huge crowd of people surrounding the GC B tank pointing and taking pictures like they do at the GC A tank. Want to compare it to the Olympics? Ok in the Olympics you can get a Gold medal in EVERY event but I'm pretty sure more people are going to tune in for basketball then the 50km walk. The gold medal for basketball is the same as the one for walking 50km and yet I'm pretty sure most people will find the basketball gold medal to be more impressive than the gold for walking. If you want a gosanke only show then by all means have one. If you want to have B class koi at your show then I think they should get awards as well. We live in a society where number 1 is better than number 2 and A is always better than B. I know it, you all know it and so do the masses. As for that very rare occasion where the GC B is actually better than the GC A? Well submit the GC B for Champion of Champions instead of the GC A that you would normally submit.......
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