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Thread: GC A vs GC B

  1. #21
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnorth View Post
    Seriously, no one that really shows koi believes that their B class win is as impressive as the same award on the A side. You won't ever find a huge crowd of people surrounding the GC B tank pointing and taking pictures like they do at the GC A tank. Want to compare it to the Olympics? Ok in the Olympics you can get a Gold medal in EVERY event but I'm pretty sure more people are going to tune in for basketball then the 50km walk. The gold medal for basketball is the same as the one for walking 50km and yet I'm pretty sure most people will find the basketball gold medal to be more impressive than the gold for walking. If you want a gosanke only show then by all means have one. If you want to have B class koi at your show then I think they should get awards as well. We live in a society where number 1 is better than number 2 and A is always better than B. I know it, you all know it and so do the masses. As for that very rare occasion where the GC B is actually better than the GC A? Well submit the GC B for Champion of Champions instead of the GC A that you would normally submit.......

    Just to set the record straight-- Champions of champions is decided by the AKCA judges right. The photo contest is decided by the members. But members who travel to the seminar ( implies serious hobbyists?)

    The GC B is the 'champion' of non -Gosanke. In practical terms and amongst beginner AKCA club shows, a non gosanke actually has a chance to win GC of the show. Should that fish also win GC B? Or will the second best non gosanke then win GC B? That is the very best B in the show-- even though it is not? The entire idea makes no sense to me. I get that it gets more awards out there. But it seems like the tail wagging the dog to me. I've judged many of these B champions and I am always left with the idea that it is a people directed award as it makes little sense in the teaching lesson. First place shiro utsuri or best of size is an honorable award. And if I take your explanation that no one really thinks the GC B is a great and equal award to a GC A , then what is the purpose? To pretend? See my point? JR

  2. #22
    Oyagoi HEADACHE6's Avatar
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    We're talking in the USA right ?


    I've been to a Show where they had "Best in Variety" as a higher award then "Best in Size", and we're worried about a Lesson on what is the "B" Champion ? What reason do I have to bring a 28" Kujaku to your Show ? Because we all know there's no lesson there.


    And because the Hobbyist who Show buy the higher priced Koi, what reason will the Breeders have to refine certain varieties when theres no reason for a Higher End Hobby to even have or show them ?


    At Louisville, we don't have a "A" Champion, it's Grand Champion. Not sure how having two or three "B" Champions screw up a Lesson. As Advanced Hobbyist or Judges, we should be giving the Lesson, not just the Koi.

    I guess I'm on the same page as JNorth.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    And if I take your explanation that no one really thinks the GC B is a great and equal award to a GC A , then what is the purpose? To pretend? See my point? JR
    The purpose is to give the best non-gosanke an award for being the best non-gosanke.....The NFL has a super bowl every year and only one team is the winner and they are crowned champion. High school football has a division winner that is crowned champion. Should high school players not be allowed to be a champion until they are in the NFL? Thats how I see the A and B divisions in the koi world. To me its two seperate contests. Gosankes are the pros and non-gosankes are your college/high school level. The purpose is for non-gosankes to compete against other non-gosankes and the winners get rewarded. To say thats its not right to pick the best non-gosanke at a show because it somehow lessen to me means that you may as well not even have any non-gosankes at the show.
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  4. #24
    Oyagoi
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    i like having some extra awards.still like to see one koi be "best"

    i am in a rich mans hobby without the funds i guess to be winning the big gc award.not going to happen.when new people come to a show they may be aw struck by the big GC but its the B varieties that really get ooh and awws thst is the bait and to hopefully reel them in to show and learn that gosanke is best



    copied my post from shack

    i really think B does get more entries and helps alot to get to magically 150 mark.
    louisville show did this past year + (been more then 1 but not exact how many)
    had a young champ B and also a baby B

    My thoughts why it draws more fish
    a person has a nice 19 1/2 inch say kujaku or something of sort.now what award can this koi get? more then likely to small to be best in variety and certainly not much chance at champion B .
    so in reality why chance even taking this fish to a show not gonna win.
    same thing with the baby b.

    some people say they do not show for an award and do it for fun.
    me i will admit i like to take a koi that can do something after all people measure koi in spring and take koi to certain shows to be at top of size level.
    or i look at what awards are given out also.

    best male hey maybe i should take a 27 inch male can't compete against same length females.

    me heck i am in search of the next "unique" koi.heck i will not win a GC but maybe i can be "different"
    some people like to compete with baby GC award also.

    so get right down to it we all like to win an award also

    few other thoughts
    i am sure without some of these other awards i would not be showing as i have said do not have the money to compete so does that mean i should just stay home with my fish.never go to a show ,never help out when there?
    the show is where i can admire the gosanke and wish someday i could own a good one that has a chance of winning and keep learning so i will know what to look for and such if i get a windfall of money.
    so if i did not try and compete on MY level and get drawn to show i would be sitting at home watching the koi swim in a watergarden filled with rocks and waterlilies and koi instead driving 7 hours and built a better koi pond because of shows.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnorth View Post
    The purpose is to give the best non-gosanke an award for being the best non-gosanke.....The NFL has a super bowl every year and only one team is the winner and they are crowned champion.
    Not sure if this is a good analogy? First, koi can't play football, and second, gosanke do compete with non gosanke. I have seen non gosanke will GC in US shows. It does happen, not often, but it does happen



    High school football has a division winner that is crowned champion. Should high school players not be allowed to be a champion until they are in the NFL?
    A high school team would indeed have 'difficulty' winning the super bowl, admittedly. Just as a kawari would have a hard time winning GC. But a killer kohaku could never win best kawarimono--- it can't even begin to compete.




    Thats how I see the A and B divisions in the koi world. To me its two seperate contests.
    I get it



    Gosankes are the pros and non-gosankes are your college/high school level.
    Yes, I've had this explained to me before. But here's a thing, whether it is comparing to the olympics, car racing, baseball ect, it is none of those things. It is a koi show with a history, a lesson and a purpose.
    In your comparison I see it as more a case of saying defense should play offense and offense shouls play defense. maybe the shape of the ball should change ( it could make the game more interesting to more people) and also that some players should be awarded extra points so as to make them look like the NY giants. Or possible be given an easier schedule so as to get to the super bowl a little earlier.


    The purpose is for non-gosankes to compete against other non-gosankes and the winners get rewarded.
    They do already-- its called best of size and it's one of the most prestigeous awards in the entire show.
    Non gosanke will ALL the non gosanke first place awards in the entire show
    To say thats its not right to pick the best non-gosanke at a show because it somehow lessen to me means that you may as well not even have any non-gosankes at the show.
    No that's not right at all. A kohaku can't win first place non gosanke. I've awarded many a ginrin and tancho and even a hi utsuri best size fish.
    I think what you're having trouble separating is the win from the award. That award bit is about honoring people. The fish that wins first place in size 3 is the best of that variety in all size three fish in the show.

    I guess the question to ask in all this is - If a non gosanke GC is only for non gosanke, you have made a rule to keep the gosanke out of that competition--- YET non gosanke are NOT barred from competiting for gosanke? How is THAT more fair???
    I mean you point out that a high school team can't compete in the super bowl so why can't a super bowl NFL team compete at the local high school level?
    In the end, there is a lesson in every koi show, it is to teach exhibitors about the varieties of koi and their 'pecking order' as genetic rarities. The gosanke are called the gosanke ( the big three) because they represent the best genetics, the most mutations, the most selective breeding effort, the ONLY lines and the main focus of nishikigoi. Having two GC's in one show is not helping the beginner. Indeed it might keep a club at a very base level of appreciation as GC B becomes 'equal' based on GC status to the real winner of the show. JR

    PS you're talking to a guy who has won two GC at a major show with two non-gosankes! So it can be done.

  6. #26
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    No that's not right at all. A kohaku can't win first place non gosanke. I've awarded many a ginrin and tancho and even a hi utsuri best size fish.
    I think what you're having trouble separating is the win from the award. That award bit is about honoring people. The fish that wins first place in size 3 is the best of that variety in all size three fish in the show.

    I guess the question to ask in all this is - If a non gosanke GC is only for non gosanke, you have made a rule to keep the gosanke out of that competition--- YET non gosanke are NOT barred from competiting for gosanke? How is THAT more fair???
    I mean you point out that a high school team can't compete in the super bowl so why can't a super bowl NFL team compete at the local high school level?
    In the end, there is a lesson in every koi show, it is to teach exhibitors about the varieties of koi and their 'pecking order' as genetic rarities. The gosanke are called the gosanke ( the big three) because they represent the best genetics, the most mutations, the most selective breeding effort, the ONLY lines and the main focus of nishikigoi. Having two GC's in one show is not helping the beginner. Indeed it might keep a club at a very base level of appreciation as GC B becomes 'equal' based on GC status to the real winner of the show. JR

    PS you're talking to a guy who has won two GC at a major show with two non-gosankes! So it can be done.
    You know what? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Let me know when you have the perfect system and exactly what it is. Until then I'm done.
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  7. #27
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Going to chime in here for one last time, if my memory serves me correct from what I remember from the last NorCal Show, there were alot of GoSanke entered....great quality show dont get me wrong, the only fish that stood out to me was the huge Sorigoi.....I used to be a puriest, but I would have probably gave the fish GC, just for seeing something different for once.

    Whatever best fits the show and the area the show is being held, it can't hurt the hobby right? We can ***** an moan about a non-gosanke GC title, but it has always been know that A comes before B...hahahahaha. But I do have the say the talk of the show was that Sorigoi, with NorCal being a 99% gosanke show most of the time.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 View Post
    We're talking in the USA right ?


    I've been to a Show where they had "Best in Variety" as a higher award then "Best in Size", and we're worried about a Lesson on what is the "B" Champion ? What reason do I have to bring a 28" Kujaku to your Show ? Because we all know there's no lesson there.


    And because the Hobbyist who Show buy the higher priced Koi, what reason will the Breeders have to refine certain varieties when theres no reason for a Higher End Hobby to even have or show them ?


    At Louisville, we don't have a "A" Champion, it's Grand Champion. Not sure how having two or three "B" Champions screw up a Lesson. As Advanced Hobbyist or Judges, we should be giving the Lesson, not just the Koi.

    I guess I'm on the same page as JNorth.
    Yes, you are on the same page as jim at this point in your judging career.

    So lets walk thru the lesson and mechanics--

    In way the koi was designed in the 1960s all fish would compete against their own variety in order to find the very best 'one' and few honorable mentions ( either second places as ties or a second and third). And the conversation was about what made the one - #1 and the others behind it in ranking.
    Once the varieties ( varieties being a display of types as unique genetic representations) were settled, the judges would pick the very best of size and then the champions. This evolved until the light bulb finally went on and the judges chose the BEST koi first and a GC was taken from a pool of the very best fish in the show. This is the system that ZNA kept and BKKS and later AKCA adopted as a templete and then put their own spin on. But fundamentally it remains the same as the fish determine its evolution. This gets a bit twisted here as people and show chairs in a laudable attempt to keep things interesting, fair and enlightened' locally, tinker with this basic templete.
    So we create special awards, tinker around the edges and misunderstand the lesson and switch varieties, mix and match etc. This is mostly harmless and simple reflects impulses of the time period. No harm done.

    Here's the issue with GC B as opposed to say Baby champion, young champion or mature champion which are awards that enhance the lesson--- a Non Gosanke in the traditional show, competes with every fish in the show. When we judge from the top down, we search the show for exceptional fish ( typically ALL in the large sizes). This 'might include' ginrin, shiro utsuri, modern Goshiki, or a the ocassional tancho, kujaku etc.
    In otherwords, it become obvious that some varieties simply are not likely to win GC as they are not as refined, rare or amazing.

    In your B show, the exceptional non gosanke is instantly removed from competing for the ultimate win in the show-- it is too good a non gosanke to NOT win that slot made for it. It is in effect removed from the show. IF it is NOT removed then the second best non gosanke wins B GC- an equally undesirable outcome. This is not unlike, by the way, creating a best male award. In that case and in America, many a potential GC was taken out of higher awards ( reserve GC, Best of size etc) by pigeon holing it as a one dimensional identity.
    So what we have, a Jim points out---are TWO shows! But the wrong two shows! We have ALL gosanke taking the awards of THE show and B fish of good representation competing for the 'kiss your sister' B award as second class citizens by proxy.
    I've seen this A B concept to the extreme and many a non gosanke which could have competed with gosanke automatically winning a B award because we 'had to find something to fill the slot'!
    I realize that intentions are good in these ideas and that people and acknowledgement of exhibitors is important but like the soccer game where everyone wins a trophy or no score is acutally kept, trying to make non gosanke something they are not and at the same time denying those exceptional individuals true recognition in a show, is a disservice as regards the 'lesson' JR

  9. #29
    wild horse dinh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori View Post
    Going to chime in here for one last time, if my memory serves me correct from what I remember from the last NorCal Show, there were alot of GoSanke entered....great quality show dont get me wrong, the only fish that stood out to me was the huge Sorigoi.....I used to be a puriest, but I would have probably gave the fish GC, just for seeing something different for once.

    Whatever best fits the show and the area the show is being held, it can't hurt the hobby right? We can ***** an moan about a non-gosanke GC title, but it has always been know that A comes before B...hahahahaha. But I do have the say the talk of the show was that Sorigoi, with NorCal being a 99% gosanke show most of the time.

    Later,
    Tony
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  10. #30
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquitori View Post
    Going to chime in here for one last time, if my memory serves me correct from what I remember from the last NorCal Show, there were alot of GoSanke entered....great quality show dont get me wrong, the only fish that stood out to me was the huge Sorigoi.....I used to be a puriest, but I would have probably gave the fish GC, just for seeing something different for once.

    Whatever best fits the show and the area the show is being held, it can't hurt the hobby right? We can ***** an moan about a non-gosanke GC title, but it has always been know that A comes before B...hahahahaha. But I do have the say the talk of the show was that Sorigoi, with NorCal being a 99% gosanke show most of the time.

    Later,
    Tony
    Tony, you have said a mouthful so let me flesh some of it out.

    There is no question that gosanke have better genetics that other varieties- they , after all, have had the most attention, the most potential and are-- THE ONLY line bred fish.
    having said that-- from the individual to the collective at a koi show, we all start with non gosanke.
    The entire templete of the hobby is to start with lots of junk koi and slowly hone one's skills and slowly reduce numbers, and buy better, more expensive koi - typically gosanke. And so the beginner moves from yamabuki, ginrin chagoi, doitsu solids, kawari, long fin carp, a few goldifsh numbering in the dozens to--- a selection of gosanke, a few non gosanke favorites, no goldies and a reduced population of a dozen or so. That has always been the hobby. As skills and tastes refine, and the dealer of old gave credit for trade-ins ( no more of course due to KHV) the price of koi would climb as the quality climbed.

    Now a local koi show should reflect the above experience X the number of members! There will be members who have gotten along the above path much further than others. And there will be the raw beginner who accidently brought a koi to the show without barbels'
    They are all judged ( except for that goldie)
    We judges travel the country and the world, and can instantly tell where a club is at in regards to its learning curve and sophistication. And NoCal is right up there with their exhibition which is top draw.
    But I have judged AKCA shows in other parts of the country and 80% of the entries have been kawari mono. I have judged shows with total 'Gin-rin effect' as that is where the club members are at in their journey.
    In the old days, Japanese ZNA judges would return to shows and at the banquets comment on the progress of members from last years show-- THIS DID NOT go over well!!! When a judge said, your fish are not as good as they were last year-- well, that was not considered polite. But it did reveal the goal and the progress that a good chapter should exhibit-- one of progress and learning.

    You are right in that in most places in the world and in California, A beats B at the top. But not everywhere-- it is a matter of competition and everything I just wrote.
    Here's the thing- a WORLD class non gosanke can beat a production gosanke every day of the weak. I mean beat it like a 'rented mule'. That's a fact.
    And to 'legislate' that all Non gosanke compete with one another is to promote shiro utsuri above the rest. remove it from B and modern Goshiki will eat the lunch of the rest of the Bs. remove it and Kujaku will rule. remove it and remove the next and we will have all B IN A! Ironically folks don't realize it but the more gosanke is bred into B group, the more unfair it will get!
    In the end, there is wisdom in the traditional system as it is the ultimate understanding of Nishikigoi and its gene pool. JR

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