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Thread: GC A vs GC B

  1. #41
    Sansai almostgeorgia's Avatar
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    Back to the discussion on GC A vs GC B, I just found out just yesterday that our local club's show committee has decided to create a GC B category this year for the first time. When I inquired, I was told this is just a 'proposal' at this point, but was being strongly considered at the urging of both some of our more experienced area koi enthusiasts who show a lot of fish, as well as the recommendation of judges from some of our past shows. I've also made some inquiries and more than a few of the nearby annual shows have apparently been doing this for some time.

    This will only be my third show to exhibit fish at this coming Fall, so what the Hell do I know about any of this? I got so enthused about the whole process last year I brought EVERY darn fish in my pond! (No, I won't do THAT again! )

    As a relatively new koi keeper, I like the 'bling' of many of the non-gosanke, all the utsuris, ogons, etc, but I keep gosanke as well. And I'm slowly but surely finding myself drawn more and more to admiring their simplicity, 'structural beauty', and yes, even the intense history and tradition that surround them with many breeder's striving for perfection.

    I find myself somewhat saddened by my club taking this approach, and opposed to adding yet another level of award (seems like grade inflation to me) In a midsized, <150 fish show I suspect we're moving closer to the very real possibility that just about every koi gets an award of some kind someday.

  2. #42
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    What year was that show? Izamiya is an ogon breeder, was it was of his? JR
    Cant remember, it was not recent....Maybe one of his, you know how breeders trade and buy fish from one another to take credit for the fish if it wins.



    • Ok, I see what you are saying--- But Soragoi is a common fish? It is one pattern very close to a common carp. They all get large and as you many remember when you were in Japan, soragoi are very inexpensive. I once saw a breeder selling a several dozen jumbo nisai soragoi for $150 each. cheaper if you bought quanitity.
      But for you and I the lesson is more direct-- soragoi is not line bred, it has no real mutation traits other than color, it has no pattern ( a think that makes most koi valuable), and it has not evolution of skin as it has wild type skin....

    - I am getting what you are saying, but I am talking by what usually shows up at shows here in Northern California. A patterned fish is always held higher at a koi show, that I understand. The fact of the matter is when a fish generally uncommon to your regional show of great quality should be given consideration even if it is "ONE" color. It all comes down to the judges and what the show what to give out, right? We can huff and puff saying a GC B award is wrong, but it all comes down to the koi club.....

    • Jumbo or 1st place winner in kawari. Not bad for a soragoi! Very respectable. Are you suggesting it should be a 'B' Grand Champion of an entire show??? It would have to beat the shiro, the goshiki, the Kujaku, all the ginrins-- ect. That's not likely to happen. So I'll say it again, every variety has its place in a koi show and ocassionally there are a few upsets which makes the show that much more exciting.

    - Noted, but like I said Jumbo Chagois are more common than a Jumbo Soragoi in my area. At this next NorCal Show there is rumor a AJKS Kawarigoi winner will be entered.....over 90cm. Maybe it wont win anything.

    • It didn't even place? 1st , 2nd ?? in Kawari??
    - Not sure, didnt stay long enough at the show to check out who won what. I all I know is my good friend who won the RGC told me to check out the tank with the Soragoi in it.

    • Well, I'm sure in some land where there are only beautiful woman, a plain looking girl is interesting to look at. But we have evolved a lot away from just being in awe of a fish because it is BIG! Gosanke carry quality, evolved skin ( that's the translucent three dimension skin you see) In soragoi any effect like that is due to scales. Gosanke possess pattern, something we can get jaded about and find common, but that is a made made pattern that didn't exist 100 years ago. Wild type soragoi existed 400 hundred yearsa go. Indeed some lines of domestic common carp ARE soragoi and they were not purposely bred for anything but dinner!
      Gosanke have special luster embedded in their skin, and put there by selective breeding. Gosanke have refined piebald genes that can repeat themselves in future generations- that is the result of line breeding. Soragoi are made by putting a boy soragoi together with a girl soragoi-- no lines.
    - Dully noted.







    The world sleeps as the chance to learn something new passes.

  3. #43
    Daihonmei
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    all well said T.

    The final point I'd make here for those ZNA members in our most advanced chapter, Nocal, is---

    Remember, the thing that makes a koi 'good' exists on two levels--

    1) level of rarity ( genetic mutation)

    2) level of refinement ( slective breeding perfection/ideal)

    We can 'honor' ( I know I do) the natural mutations in koi such as Asagi, chagoi, karasugoi and matsuba easily. They are beautiful!!! They are great examples of wild type mutation and further brought along by selective culling.

    But in the end, a koi show is a competition and an educational moment. And gosanke have the most rare mutation traits and the greatest slective breeding programs and the only line breeding programs.
    So T, don't hate them because their beautiful! Best, JR

  4. #44
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    all well said T.
    The final point I'd make here for those ZNA members in our most advanced chapter, Nocal, is---
    Remember, the thing that makes a koi 'good' exists on two levels--
    1) level of rarity ( genetic mutation)
    2) level of refinement ( slective breeding perfection/ideal)
    We can 'honor' ( I know I do) the natural mutations in koi such as Asagi, chagoi and matsuba easily. They are beautiful!!! They are great examples of wild type mutation and further brought along by selective culling.
    But in the end, a koi show is a competition and an educational moment. And gosanke have the most rare mutation traits and the greatest slective breeding programs and the only line breeding programs.
    So T, don't hate them because their beautiful! Best, JR
    So, no GC C for Butterfly Koi?

    I am sorry, I could not resist.

  5. #45
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    So, no GC C for Butterfly Koi?

    I am sorry, I could not resist.

    Listen, I'd LOVE nothing more for there to be a dragon carp GC in its own right, in its own longfin carp society, and at its own longfin carp show! JR

  6. #46
    MCA
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    That is exactly how we treat long fins in AKC. They can not compete in a koi/nishikgoi show any more than can a goldfish. That is why the AKCA judges created some long fin judging standards. If you love long fins, give them there own 15 minutes of fame in their own competition.

    So if a club wants to have a long fin competition...great. Have that in parallel to the main koi/nishikigoi competition. The same goes for goldfish.

  7. #47
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCA View Post
    That is exactly how we treat long fins in AKC. They can not compete in a koi/nishikgoi show any more than can a goldfish. That is why the AKCA judges created some long fin judging standards. If you love long fins, give them there own 15 minutes of fame in their own competition.

    So if a club wants to have a long fin competition...great. Have that in parallel to the main koi/nishikigoi competition. The same goes for goldfish.

    Michael I whole heartedly agree-- but they are SOooo different from goldfish and nishikigoi cousins and they are certainly more popular than Japanese imports-- there should be a movement to create a club around dragon fish just as once upon a time, goldfish were able to stand on their own two pecs and sponsor goldfish shows ( the famous Goldfish club of America!). It just takes a few of us to get an actual non nishikigoi standard together. Longfins or dargon carp are unique onto themselves. JR

  8. #48
    Honmei ricshaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Listen, I'd LOVE nothing more for there to be a dragon carp GC in its own right, in its own longfin carp society, and at its own longfin carp show! JR
    Pure blasphemy!


  9. #49
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricshaw View Post
    Pure blasphemy!


    LOLs JR

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