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Thread: Bulging Eyes

  1. #11
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    This is my personal experience only...I overdosed a Koi with Kanamycine (10 times the dose) I was rushing...and added one 0 by accident. Overdosed two fish and one died...
    Kidney failure was the repercussions in my case...
    But I suspect it might have caused some permanent damage to the fish, to what degree not sure.

  2. #12
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato View Post
    This is my personal experience only...I overdosed a Koi with Kanamycine (10 times the dose) I was rushing...and added one 0 by accident. Overdosed two fish and one died...
    Kidney failure was the repercussions in my case...
    But I suspect it might have caused some permanent damage to the fish, to what degree not sure.

    No doubt that can appen. Usually it mass die off of bacteria and release of toxins that fries the kidney. But over dose from the antibiotic is also possible based on general condition of kidneys, water temperature and yes, something that 99% of folks don't know-- the time of the year. JR

  3. #13
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    No doubt that can appen. Usually it mass die off of bacteria and release of toxins that fries the kidney. But over dose from the antibiotic is also possible based on general condition of kidneys, water temperature and yes, something that 99% of folks don't know-- the time of the year. JR
    I forgot to say that the final result was also, pop eye!
    Kanamycine is very toxic if overdosed...That is why some coun tries are not selling it...
    I asked in Japan, which is the best antibiotic they use...that is very effective...they said kanamycine...

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato View Post
    I forgot to say that the final result was also, pop eye!
    Kanamycine is very toxic if overdosed...That is why some coun tries are not selling it...
    I asked in Japan, which is the best antibiotic they use...that is very effective...they said kanamycine...

    Well, there is no such thing as a ‘good or bad’ antibiotic. Just wrong doses ( over or under) and bad injection technique ( IM vs IP) and wrong temperature and wrong diagnosis.
    I was the first hobbyist to inject koi on the east coast of the USA. And amongst the first dozen folks in AKCA to inject koi and write about it. So I’ve used the popular antibiotics – definition being the ones that gave quick results for ulcers. I also experimented a lot with other families and concentrations for treating pine cone symptoms ( septicemia).
    Some drugs are tolerated better than others but again, that depends on ;
    1) Temperature
    2) Condition of the fish
    3) Advancement of infection
    4) Size of the fish
    5) Time of year
    6) History of the fish
    7) Injection site/technique
    In general, injections should be limited to a five day routine. They should be strong and in the right setting and at the right temperature of clear the antibiotic. In the ideal, they should be weighed.
    Amongst the most important reactions one should become familiar with, is the reaction to an injection. If you see nervous system involvement, your fish is either toxic due to dose or injection technique – or- too damaged already to tolerate the clearing of the antibiotic. JR

  5. #15
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Well, there is no such thing as a ‘good or bad’ antibiotic. Just wrong doses ( over or under) and bad injection technique ( IM vs IP) and wrong temperature and wrong diagnosis.
    I was the first hobbyist to inject koi on the east coast of the USA. And amongst the first dozen folks in AKCA to inject koi and write about it. So I’ve used the popular antibiotics – definition being the ones that gave quick results for ulcers. I also experimented a lot with other families and concentrations for treating pine cone symptoms ( septicemia).
    Some drugs are tolerated better than others but again, that depends on ;
    1) Temperature
    2) Condition of the fish
    3) Advancement of infection
    4) Size of the fish
    5) Time of year
    6) History of the fish
    7) Injection site/technique
    In general, injections should be limited to a five day routine. They should be strong and in the right setting and at the right temperature of clear the antibiotic. In the ideal, they should be weighed.
    Amongst the most important reactions one should become familiar with, is the reaction to an injection. If you see nervous system involvement, your fish is either toxic due to dose or injection technique – or- too damaged already to tolerate the clearing of the antibiotic. JR
    I saw U recomend gram negative antibiotics...I try to use them too, but use also broad spectrum...
    I have no koi medication here...so I use human antibiotics...and as U did try and experiment with different ones...and see the results...
    What antibiotics gave U very good results for particular maladies...
    I inject as Dr Johnson recommended behind the pelvic fin, needle pointed towards the mouth...

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato View Post
    I saw U recomend gram negative antibiotics...I try to use them too, but use also broad spectrum...
    I have no koi medication here...so I use human antibiotics...and as U did try and experiment with different ones...and see the results...
    What antibiotics gave U very good results for particular maladies...
    I inject as Dr Johnson recommended behind the pelvic fin, needle pointed towards the mouth...
    Injection site depends on the drug, Yama. Some are best absorbed in muscle and others are too acidic to use IP yet IP is a rapid delivery system/method and a truer dose.
    Broad spectrum sounds good as it sounds very 'extensive' in its range. yet virtually all common koi infections are from the gram negative sensitivity range. So gram negative antibotic based injectibles are matching the bactericide/inhibitor abilities to the right range of culprits. JR

  7. #17
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Injection site depends on the drug, Yama. Some are best absorbed in muscle and others are too acidic to use IP yet IP is a rapid delivery system/method and a truer dose.
    Broad spectrum sounds good as it sounds very 'extensive' in its range. yet virtually all common koi infections are from the gram negative sensitivity range. So gram negative antibotic based injectibles are matching the bactericide/inhibitor abilities to the right range of culprits. JR
    How will I know which one to deliver IM and which one IP?
    Going to check now what is kanamycine...BS or gram negative...I suspect gram negative...
    I had a silly reasoning that BS is better since I dont know which bacteria I am dealing with...

  8. #18
    Sansai
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    Aminoglycosides such as you are using are active against gram negatives and especially pseudomonas which is so deadly in Koi. They are a good choice for killing bugs but also have a very narrow therapeutic index (the space between killing bugs and killing koi). So they cause renal failure at even quite small overdoses. So weigh your koi and stick to the recommended dosage.

  9. #19
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pondlife View Post
    Aminoglycosides such as you are using are active against gram negatives and especially pseudomonas which is so deadly in Koi. They are a good choice for killing bugs but also have a very narrow therapeutic index (the space between killing bugs and killing koi). So they cause renal failure at even quite small overdoses. So weigh your koi and stick to the recommended dosage.
    Thanks a lot...How to administer them best? IM or IP?

  10. #20
    Sansai
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    Generally IM is recommended, certainly for Gentamycin, the most common one, but check on label as kanamycin isn't used in UK. Certainly not orally or by bath or skin!!!

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