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Thread: Bulging Eyes

  1. #21
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pondlife View Post
    Generally IM is recommended, certainly for Gentamycin, the most common one, but check on label as kanamycin isn't used in UK. Certainly not orally or by bath or skin!!!
    Thank U! Will do!

  2. #22
    Tosai
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    Pondlife, please tell me why you can't use gentamycin and kanamycin as a bath? I have used both that way and need to know if I am screwing up. I just followed directions and seem to have gotten good results. One of the few antiboitics that is absorbable thru the skin and gills. Let me know...thanks Gary

  3. #23
    Sansai
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    You can use it that way but the manufacturers tell you that all aminoglycosides aren't absorbed orally or through the skin.

    Won't do any harm as probably wont do anything at all. Not sure if they are absorbed much through the gills but might well be. You would then have no idea of the dosage given which is dangerous or ineffective.

    By injection either IM or IV however they are well absorbed and very effective but deadly in even moderate overdose.

  4. #24
    Tosai
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    DIRECTIONS FOR USE:
    KANAMYCIN SULFATE is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is bactericidal for gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. The drug is indicated for control of fish diseases caused by Aeromonas , Vibrio , Flexibacter , and Mycobacteria (fish tuberculosis). Freshwater fishes absorb Kanamycin in a bath, resulting in rapid attainment of therapeutic blood serum levels. It is , therefore, useful in cases of systemic bacterial infections of freshwater fishes.
    Made in U.S.A.
    This product is not for sale by Kordon LLC.


    TREATMENT PROCEDURES AND DOSAGE:
    BATH: As a treatment for susceptible external infections, use as a bath at a concentration of from 26.7 to a maximum of 66.6 ppm (mg/L) (this will produce a concentration of from 20 to 50 ppm active Kanamycin). Higher concentrations than 66.6 ppm will not improve the efficacy of the product. The actual concentration should be determined through research as it applies to a particular situation. Partial water changes must be made after 24-48 hours, followed by a re-treatment. If improvement is not noted within 3 days, discontinue. To achieve the recommended dosage: add 100.9 mg (to achieve a concentration of 26.7 ppm) to a maximum of 252.35 mg per gallon of water. For accuracy and reproducibility of results, this drug should be measured by weight. However, because of its relative safety in aquariums, it can be measured by volume (teaspoons) when treating relatively small volumes of water. An approximation of the recommended treatment can be achieved by adding 1 level teaspoon to 20 gallons of water (this will produce a concentration of 20 ppm active Kanamycin) up to 1 teaspoon to 8 gallons (this will produce a concentration of 50 ppm active Kanamycin). At the minimum recommended dosage, 100 grams of this product will treat approximately 990 gallons of water.
    As a treatment for systemic (internal) infections, the concentration can be increased to 133.3 ppm (mg/L) (100 ppm active). Treat 3-5 days or until complete remission of disease. Make partial water changes and re-treat every 48 hours. An approximation of the recommended concentration can be achieved by adding 1/4 level teaspoon to 1 gallon of water.
    CAUTION:

  5. #25
    Sansai
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    Thanks for posting. That's really interesting as it's not a drug used in the UK.

    I still wonder why you would use a bath. A drug with a narrow therapeutic index seems inherently wrong to use as a bath. You are generally going to be under dosing but will really have no idea how much they absorb as there are too many variables.

    Why not just give the correct dose in an IM injection? You then get the maximum dosage into your fish that it can safely stand without side effects. Also the amount used in a bath must be massively greater and hence more expensive than the injection.

    Just a thought.

  6. #26
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gelmore54 View Post
    DIRECTIONS FOR USE:
    KANAMYCIN SULFATE is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is bactericidal for gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. The drug is indicated for control of fish diseases caused by Aeromonas , Vibrio , Flexibacter , and Mycobacteria (fish tuberculosis). Freshwater fishes absorb Kanamycin in a bath, resulting in rapid attainment of therapeutic blood serum levels. It is , therefore, useful in cases of systemic bacterial infections of freshwater fishes.
    Made in U.S.A.
    This product is not for sale by Kordon LLC.


    TREATMENT PROCEDURES AND DOSAGE:
    BATH: As a treatment for susceptible external infections, use as a bath at a concentration of from 26.7 to a maximum of 66.6 ppm (mg/L) (this will produce a concentration of from 20 to 50 ppm active Kanamycin). Higher concentrations than 66.6 ppm will not improve the efficacy of the product. The actual concentration should be determined through research as it applies to a particular situation. Partial water changes must be made after 24-48 hours, followed by a re-treatment. If improvement is not noted within 3 days, discontinue. To achieve the recommended dosage: add 100.9 mg (to achieve a concentration of 26.7 ppm) to a maximum of 252.35 mg per gallon of water. For accuracy and reproducibility of results, this drug should be measured by weight. However, because of its relative safety in aquariums, it can be measured by volume (teaspoons) when treating relatively small volumes of water. An approximation of the recommended treatment can be achieved by adding 1 level teaspoon to 20 gallons of water (this will produce a concentration of 20 ppm active Kanamycin) up to 1 teaspoon to 8 gallons (this will produce a concentration of 50 ppm active Kanamycin). At the minimum recommended dosage, 100 grams of this product will treat approximately 990 gallons of water.
    As a treatment for systemic (internal) infections, the concentration can be increased to 133.3 ppm (mg/L) (100 ppm active). Treat 3-5 days or until complete remission of disease. Make partial water changes and re-treat every 48 hours. An approximation of the recommended concentration can be achieved by adding 1/4 level teaspoon to 1 gallon of water.
    CAUTION:
    Thanks!
    I have used it as bath...and kept insisting that I had good results...but did not want to insist any more...
    I use it at 750 mg to 1liter of water for two hours in aerated container...treated bad moth infections with it, fin rot...or what ever I had.

  7. #27
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pondlife View Post
    Thanks for posting. That's really interesting as it's not a drug used in the UK.

    I still wonder why you would use a bath. A drug with a narrow therapeutic index seems inherently wrong to use as a bath. You are generally going to be under dosing but will really have no idea how much they absorb as there are too many variables.

    Why not just give the correct dose in an IM injection? You then get the maximum dosage into your fish that it can safely stand without side effects. Also the amount used in a bath must be massively greater and hence more expensive than the injection.

    Just a thought.
    I also apply it IP...but for very small fish I prefer the bath...it treats internally and externally the wound.

  8. #28
    Sansai
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    Interesting area. Had a bit of a read and there seems to be only one scientific paper published which says it may be useful. I've linked it below and it is an easy read. They found that high dose baths for at least 2 hours could establish therapeutic blood levels of kanamycin in channel catfish. So probably ok in koi. The blood levels obtained however were all over the place, so toxicity maybe an issue. Other textbooks counsel against bath usage because of the high amounts of antibiotics used and released into the environment. Also the sub-therapeutic doses leading to increased resistance of bacteria in our ponds.

    http://www.jwildlifedis.org/content/12/4/555.full.pdf

  9. #29
    Daihonmei
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    Sidebar: just saw this debate about baths and antibiotics- it hardly EVER works, just as oral antibiotics hardly ever works.
    The problems with these routes of adminisitration are numerous- but basically come down to effect/right dose and the unknown of what the fish is actually getting. This is due to GAS which is a common companion of debilitated individual koi.
    And injection is a plan to deliver the exact dose. It is also a technqiue to get the antibiotic to the blood stream that, in turn, brings a killing agent to the base of dermal infections. The addition of topic treatment ( to kill bacteria on the surface) is a two front attack and very effective. 'Soaking koi' in a concentration of antibiotics is a very passive hope that something good will happen in terms of topic kill and absorption. Better than nothing-- but just barely. In addition, antibiotics at concentration will trash your good bacteria and kill other benine bacteria species-- setting off a crash of the system ( cloudy water and secondary infections). So it must be done very carefully and often in a less that theraputic dose so as to preserve the system. That then heavily depends on the fish to cure themselves strongly. JR

  10. #30
    Tategoi Yamato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Sidebar: just saw this debate about baths and antibiotics- it hardly EVER works, just as oral antibiotics hardly ever works.
    The problems with these routes of adminisitration are numerous- but basically come down to effect/right dose and the unknown of what the fish is actually getting. This is due to GAS which is a common companion of debilitated individual koi.
    And injection is a plan to deliver the exact dose. It is also a technqiue to get the antibiotic to the blood stream that, in turn, brings a killing agent to the base of dermal infections. The addition of topic treatment ( to kill bacteria on the surface) is a two front attack and very effective. 'Soaking koi' in a concentration of antibiotics is a very passive hope that something good will happen in terms of topic kill and absorption. Better than nothing-- but just barely. In addition, antibiotics at concentration will trash your good bacteria and kill other benine bacteria species-- setting off a crash of the system ( cloudy water and secondary infections). So it must be done very carefully and often in a less that theraputic dose so as to preserve the system. That then heavily depends on the fish to cure themselves strongly. JR
    JR, Darling...I use it for small fish in a container...small one...I use 1.5 liters of water and add 1g kanamycine...up to 25 cm fish...Put an airstone and keep it in it for 2 hours...There is no need for me to lie...I had so far very very good results...and it is easier for me when I am not home...Just phone home and tell my workers to do it...they will not manage injections...for me it is fine for small fish...but today I was injecting it for the third time...I dont know what my fish has but one died, and the second one developed the same...and it is hard to treat.
    No ulcer...Just a big round area 7cm diameter...with redness, swelling, and raised scales...but no ulcers...looks like internal infection to me.

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