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Thread: Bulging Eyes

  1. #1
    Fry
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    Bulging Eyes

    Hi

    Why is my koi someday will have their eyes protruding and other days don't? I noticed this is because of stress level and genetic? Please share your experiences on this, as I already killed one koi in another tank when doing the 350 grams salt treatment in a 20 gallon QT. I put 150 grams on 1st day, then another 100 grams on the 2nd day, and another 100 grams on the third day. On the 4th day, it became restless, and trying to jump put of the tank. Then on the 5th day, it release odor foul, on the 6th day outside the gills has a small red dot and red mark on the lips.

    Someone said it got killed because of ammonia, but I put the ammonia binder everyday? Any clue why I killed it?

  2. #2
    MCA
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    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Exactly why did you do that salt treatment? Did you scrape & scope and find parasites? If so, which parasites?

    What are the water parameters pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate?

    Why the ammonia binder each day? That should only be needed for a new pond that does not have a mature filter.

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    It is important to distinguish between pop-eye disease and temporary bulging eyes. The symptoms may be the same, but the underlying causes are quite different. Pop-eye is a disease symptom caused by internal disfunctions. The osmoregulatory system of the fish is usually affected by an infection or tumor. The temporary bulging eye condition occurs without a disease condition as the cause.

    I have never heard a good explanation of causes for temporary protruding eyes. In each instance I am aware of, however, the condition came and went with water changes... either moving the fish to different water than it was accustomed or water changes as part of pond maintenance (often involving use of well water). I've also heard of it occurring when ponds are deeper than 12-feet and heavily aerated, but I am not familiar with such situations. Usually it is just one koi in a pond that reacts. From what I've seen posted on the boards, Tancho seems more sensitive than other varieties, but I cannot say if that is true. If the bulging follows a regular water change, I would suggest having the water tested for dissolved gases. Perhaps aeration prior to placing the water in the pond will help, such as by spraying it into the pond. Or, perhaps the regular water changes should be smaller, but more frequent. I have seen koi develop bulging eyes when taken to a show. The condition seems to appear about 24-36 hours after the fish is placed in the show tank, and disappears after being returned home to the water in which it is accustomed to living. There was an instance discussed on another board a few years ago where the condition developed and was relieved by performing water changes. The pondkeeper did not keep a clean pond. One speculation was that gases building in the leaf litter contributed to the condition, which went away when the pondkeeper cleaned the pond and gave the fish fresh water. However, it was just one speculation among many.

    In your case it seems that multiple fish develop bulging eyes temporarily. I suggest you begin a journal noting everything that occurs with your pond on a daily basis. Note all observations... heavy pollen entering the pond, toads spawning, rainfall, etc. Then see what correlates with the condition coming or going. Perhaps it is related to rain-borne contaminates. I suspect the source water, so I would check it first.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    The comments made already are sound and real and worth consideration. And I think, from the sound of the post, that this is probably an environmental/disease/treatment related problem.
    But I'll put this out there for a long shit consideration and a general point about protruding eyes, this time of year-- THIS time of year we see some females blowing up from bumper crop egg production. And as Mike as identified, the osmo-regulatory system is under pressure ( pun intended!) when a fish as massive egg production. The result of this fluid issue can be protruding eyes. So if your fish is very egg bound, don't look to the medicien cabinet and trash the environment in the process, for a very normal and natural condition.
    One comment on treating fish-- it seems to make sense to 'attack' a health problem in fish with a full nuclear arsenial-- resist that urge! Observe, research, diagnose and then treat. Don't guess and don't employ internet remedies from the latest koi internet board. MANY things on the internet are simply repeated ideas that were read earlier by the 'advisor' on the day you ask your question-- there are scores of tidbits that you will find repeated over and over on internet boards-- so the assumption is, " this MUST be true, vetted and a standard way to deal with the problem I'm facing". But in truth this tidbit might be a commonly repeated belief due to the nature of the internet's power to repeat and make omni-present, the latest subject. I know I'm a broken record, but join a ZNA chapter ( we have nine of them throughout the USA with the membership representing 90% of all advanced hobbyists in America) , and have an advanced hobbyist bring your understanding along. A word to the wise--- JR

  5. #5
    Tosai
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    This year, one of my bigger fishes (70 cm Ogon) died of internal bacterial infection. The symptoms were bulging eyes and staying still on the bottom. Last year I also lost a kohaku (60 cm) with a same disease. So that makes two year in a row now.

    The problem was both events happened approximately the same time in the month of May. May is the time of seasonal change in my country. Rainy season ends and replaced by dry season.
    The noticeable changes were:
    1. Water temperature drops from high 25 C to low 24 C
    2. Humidity changes from 75%-80% to 50%-60%
    3. Sun was more intense and longer than before due to absence of cloud but still water temperature dropped

    I was prepared this year by adding salt to my pond to 0.2% (2 ppm), adding potassium permanganate, and fasting my pond 1-2 weeks by the end of April. I tried emergency QT for the fish by adding salt to 0.3%-0.4% and heat up the water 26 C but still I lost a fish.

    Can anybody share what happen? How can I be more prepared next time around? FYI I did not lose any fish during other period of the year.

    Thanks.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by e4gler4y View Post
    This year, one of my bigger fishes (70 cm Ogon) died of internal bacterial infection. The symptoms were bulging eyes and staying still on the bottom. Last year I also lost a kohaku (60 cm) with a same disease. So that makes two year in a row now.

    The problem was both events happened approximately the same time in the month of May. May is the time of seasonal change in my country. Rainy season ends and replaced by dry season.
    The noticeable changes were:
    1. Water temperature drops from high 25 C to low 24 C
    2. Humidity changes from 75%-80% to 50%-60%
    3. Sun was more intense and longer than before due to absence of cloud but still water temperature dropped

    I was prepared this year by adding salt to my pond to 0.2% (2 ppm), adding potassium permanganate, and fasting my pond 1-2 weeks by the end of April. I tried emergency QT for the fish by adding salt to 0.3%-0.4% and heat up the water 26 C but still I lost a fish.

    Can anybody share what happen? How can I be more prepared next time around? FYI I did not lose any fish during other period of the year.

    Thanks.

    So, a very good contribution to the discussion!

    Two things to know, warm water favors bacteria of all kinds. Warm water also discourages oxygen levels. This means that you can aerate and trickle and otherwise cause carbon dioxide to leave the water but at high temperatures you can only have so much oxygen saturation IN water. This then favors 'bad bacteria' over 'good bacteria species'.
    here's another unfortunately truth-- ONCE superficial infection moves from skin and deep skin to blood and internal organs ( Septacemia) the odds of reversing it even with injections is low. And if the kidney is involved ( which it always is in swollen body and bulging eyes) then the odds of recovery go even lower. Don't get me wrong-- you can cure 10% of the cases if gotten to early and with the right antibiotics in a strong fish, but the fish even 'cured' is always weak and often reinfects after a time.
    One old wife's tale says to feed yoghurt to the infected fish--- rubbish.
    Another says to use salt to balance fluids-- rubbish, it can't cure the fish just address the symtoms.
    In the end, good water, injections of the right combination of antibiotics ( gram negative) and luck is all one can due. A litle salt for 'comfort' and clean cool ( 70 F ) well areated water in a thinly stoked environment is all one can do. I have removed the fluids from such fish ( up to 50 cc) and this can help and also provide a sample for the lab, But too much and the fish will shock out and die and too little will have the fish looking the same way in a few days. Still draining fluids much assist kidney function and also make the fish more comfortable. JR

    PS adding PP will help correct the source of bacteria in a mulm type pond setting, but once the fish is infected internally it has no value or meaning to treat with PP. Better to never need PP for dirty ponds by doing regular 15% water changes weekly PLUS dumping of all sumps twice a week in warm weather, and not over feeding.

  7. #7
    Tosai
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    JasPR, You were spot on with the analysis. Thanks a lot.

    I dare to say that I take care of my water very well. Water changes daily 5%-10%, I clean up each filter chamber one at a time every 2 weeks, I clean up my Easy and Nexus 210 every week, I have bakki shower also. My turnover is probably 1.5-2 times in one hour. I put in 200 watt of aeration into my 25 ton pond.

    What baffled me the most was that although I was prepared this year, still one my my fishes got sick. Is there something wrong with my preventive action (adding salt and PP)? Is there other alternative to prevent break out of "bad" bacteria next time around? Or is it just the particular fish could not adapt well enough or fast enough with the changing weather?

    Thanks.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by e4gler4y View Post
    JasPR, You were spot on with the analysis. Thanks a lot.

    I dare to say that I take care of my water very well. Water changes daily 5%-10%, I clean up each filter chamber one at a time every 2 weeks, I clean up my Easy and Nexus 210 every week, I have bakki shower also. My turnover is probably 1.5-2 times in one hour. I put in 200 watt of aeration into my 25 ton pond.

    What baffled me the most was that although I was prepared this year, still one my my fishes got sick. Is there something wrong with my preventive action (adding salt and PP)? Is there other alternative to prevent break out of "bad" bacteria next time around? Or is it just the particular fish could not adapt well enough or fast enough with the changing weather?

    Thanks.
    Good Morning, generally speaking is a bad idea to do preventative chemotherapy. By definition it effects 'things'. Better improve things thru water changes, clean conditions and water testing.
    Now this is always an upsetting comment and a frustration from those rading it--- I have assisted with 100 plus pond visits to hobbyists homes over the years. The owners almost always tell me that their conditions are good, tests are normal and the fish are eating well, but they are all sick. Those statements are at odds with one another! IF the water is perfect and the tests are perfect and the fish are perfect-- they can't be sick!

    So an investigation of the cause needs to take place. Typically I find that when this situation is present there usually are the following 'hints'

    1) too many fish
    2) too much feeding
    3) too small a filter
    4) poor water turn over- very common.
    5) fish allowed to live under ice all winter
    6) fish are all new purchases or just purchased before winter set in
    7) chloramine in water supply
    8) too many additives and treatments to main pond. Combinations, readditions after water changes, routine additives etc


    Some things to think about. JR

  9. #9
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Did these fish have egg-heavy bodies before they became lethargic and began resting on the bottom?

  10. #10
    Tosai
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    Did these fish have egg-heavy bodies before they became lethargic and began resting on the bottom?
    I hope you're referring to my situation so my answer is no. Actually now that you mentioned it, those two fishes that died were the skinnies. No matter how much I fed them, they stayed slim and not very bulky.

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