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Thread: which Gosanke is 'best'?

  1. #11
    Honmei Brutuscz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzyfish View Post
    I dunno I like a good kohaku as much as the next person......but his description is a little creepy.........sort of like the blonde haired.. blue eyed..super race. Great is great and shouldn't be subjected to such a narrow definition IMO..
    I actually find it rather creepy that you keep bringing up women when we are discussing koi?? Maybe there is some weird fetish I do not know about...the internet is a large and scary place. Lets keep the discussion focused on carp...you can google the weird stuff and discuss it on an entirely different type of site. Strange people in this world...takes all types I guess??

  2. #12
    Jumbo
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    The most developed varieties of Nishikigoi in the past 10 years are Showa for its size & quality and also Goshiki for its quality & pattern (not yet size-wise), while Sanke is retreated quality-wise, especially sumi compared with the past, due to increased the size, or in other word, unfortunately it has not being improved ideally.....

    As for Kohaku, not all of course but, some of serious top end Kohaku might have reached to the limit (for its quality, size, body and pattern-wise). On the other hand, it has been said that if a perfect Showa is made/appeared, the other variety of Nishikigoi won't be able to overcome suchlike Showa sansyoku.


    Just a point of view from Japanese well-known senior breeders & dealers and hobbyists....

  3. #13
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kindai View Post
    The most developed varieties of Nishikigoi in the past 10 years are Showa for its size & quality and also Goshiki for its quality & pattern (not yet size-wise), while Sanke is retreated quality-wise, especially sumi compared with the past, due to increased the size, or in other word, unfortunately it has not being improved ideally.....

    As for Kohaku, not all of course but, some of serious top end Kohaku might have reached to the limit (for its quality, size, body and pattern-wise). On the other hand, it has been said that if a perfect Showa is made/appeared, the other variety of Nishikigoi won't be able to overcome suchlike Showa sansyoku.


    Just a point of view from Japanese well-known senior breeders & dealers and hobbyists....
    Good review Junichi and pretty much what I sense from the Japanese breeders I keep in contact with.
    I do think of this as a rotation of effort and limits of the genes being worked with. But a roulette wheel has many spokes!
    kohaku are basic red and white fish. Yet the white has been developed, the skin derms 'reinvented' and and the Bone structure returned to that of a carp. The body is powerful and the volume is great. the beni is refined and lustrous and the appointments of the plate such as kiwa are well established. The secondary hi is minimal and piebald patterns are 'almost' uniform and predictable. The shades of beni are established in lines and the mix of cells in the plate are ideal --from yellow to pink ( based on lines).

    So I have to agree that it seems that kohaku are developed 95% of all the dreams of all the early breeders.
    Showa has so much more room to develop as time passes.

    For those who do not know, Super Kindai is Junichi Kayano, ceritfied judge and ZNA America's Chief Education Officer.
    We are lucky to have your perspective Kayano San! Best, JR

  4. #14
    Oyagoi dizzyfish's Avatar
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    Let's hope the best fish in the show continues to win and that the outcome is not influenced by a preference for a particular variety.

  5. #15
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    JR, are you saying, showa is an experience as in an undertaking to the links back to some origins and the journey through development, sanke is an art, more as abstraction and a reflection of some cultural elements and kohaku encompasses both and all?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzyfish View Post
    Let's hope the best fish in the show continues to win and that the outcome is not influenced by a preference for a particular variety.
    NEVER! I know this might shown like 'safe talk' Mitch, but almost all the judges I know and like to work with TRULY and ABSOLUTELY leave their personal preferences and favorites at the show ring entry ropes!
    the best fish in the show wins. I showed dogs for a while in another life time. And I was always amazed when the breeders told me things like " o that judge favors black and white siberians and will never put a red siberian up for 1st". In koi we don't have that. Not sure why? other than we are all trained to wipe our minds of such thoughts.
    Now don't get me wrong, a judge might ,and often does, favor traits. But if too invested in even that habit, it becomes obvious that objectivity is suffering.
    So to take myself as an example-- I do not like jumbo koi and adult koi to have excessive humps. It is a look and not a deformity-- but it is distracting to my eye. I will tend to choose another body type if all other things are equal. BUT that is the key-- IF all other things are equal-- meaning I would never pass on an exceptional humped jumbo if it was wonderful in other traits.
    JR

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    JR, are you saying, showa is an experience as in an undertaking to the links back to some origins and the journey through development, sanke is an art, more as abstraction and a reflection of some cultural elements and kohaku encompasses both and all?
    Close. As Junichi San points out, Sanke was the art piece of the recent past but has declined in excitment as a worng turn may have been made in the obsession to make them large. The sanke is probably THE fish for focusing on quality of skin, color and pattern. Kohaku influenced sanke-- perhaps too much at one point. But the skin of Kohaku and the color tone of kohaku is special.
    Showa, to me, is really more separated from kohaku and sanke ( at least as an original concept). As you well know, sumi in old style showa is a statement as to their origin. Black based fish. the showa has been so 'reinvented' in modern times as not to be that same fish we once knew. Again the influence of the two gosanke cousins has a lot to do with it.
    As you also know, koi are all about selective breeding. And selective breeding is a dance- two steps forward and one step back-- and then repeat--
    So for me-- sanke is art and maybe at a temporary dead end and the breeders need to rededicate their efforts
    Kohaku is at its apex and has shared what it is with its other gosanke members
    And showa has hit a new stride and has a long runaway ahead of it. It 'could' dip back to its sumi roots or it could become a refined gosanke member. Most of the great ones are a tribute to both the past and the modern. I'm thinking of that former Dainichi showa winner a few years back. JR

  8. #18
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Kohaku I see as far removed from the wild-type or origins of nishikigoi aas one can get. Other koi outside of gosanke link back in one way or other. Showa, due to it sumi base is as far away from those origins as they can get without the complete loss of that identity.

  9. #19
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    Close. As Junichi San points out, Sanke was the art piece of the recent past but has declined in excitment as a worng turn may have been made in the obsession to make them large. The sanke is probably THE fish for focusing on quality of skin, color and pattern. Kohaku influenced sanke-- perhaps too much at one point. But the skin of Kohaku and the color tone of kohaku is special. *** So for me-- sanke is art and maybe at a temporary dead end and the breeders need to rededicate their efforts
    Interesting thought. I can only try to interpret what I see in show reports and photos on the internet and get a vague sense of things.

    Momotaro has taken the Matsunosuke Sanke to the point where meter long Sanke are obtainable, even if not common ... other than in the collection of Nobuo Takigawa. (He seems to have so many based on the show reports that I'm always amazed. His 95cm reserve GC of a couple of years ago is featured in the latest e-Rinko upon attaining a meter in Takigawa-san's home pond.) The Momotaro beni and sumi differ from that of Toshio Sakai's Matsunosuke line, although influenced by those pigment genes. It will take some generations to improve further on the pigments. Skin and shiroji have not progressed as in Kohaku. It is the body structure that has been maintained, which can support the meter length, but does not bulk-up the way SFF's line does. I have the sense that Momotaro is working in that direction, but since it takes 9-12 years to get a finished meter Sanke, what we currently see in competition represents the breeding of a decade ago. The sansai seen in the Momotaro auction photos are not the same Sanke. I'd like to see the ones Maeda-san thought too good to auction.

    Meanwhile, SFF has been developing Sanke from 'the other direction'. There it seems they are taking their Kohaku and turning them into Sanke. Their Sanke have the bulk of their Kohaku and have progressed in the skin and shiroji. So far it seems the pigments have not held beyond 7-8 years, or for the over 90cm size, but I expect that will change as the production of recent years attains age.

    Yammatsu seems to have gone in still another direction, with improvement of pigments on the Matsunosuke base, but not so focused on the meter long body. The other Sanke breeders who started with Matsunosuke, like Shintaro, seem to be going along a similar path, although by differing means. Since the 2004 earthquake so much of the southern Japan genetics have been brought into Niigata that it does little good to try to distinguish, at least for me. Need a much better eye than I have.

    So, I don't know if it is so much a temporary dead-end as a snapshot of a point in time. There some exciting things going on. My bet is on Momotaro and SFF competing to produce the Sanke that has all the quality traits of SFF's Kohaku and the size Momotaro has achieved. They are probably the only breeders willing to devote the resources to Sanke to reach a 21st century level of accomplishment. If SFF can get a Sanke that will attain size and peak around age 7 while the skin is still very youthful, as with their Kohaku, SFF will win the race with over 85cm Sanke. But I think there is enough doubt for Maeda to remain in competition.

    I would like Momotaro to win. It gets monotonous for SFF to pick up nearly all the top awards for Kohaku and Dainichi for Showa. To have either of them also come to dominate in Sanke would just be too concentrated for my preferences. I think we are at the point where truly only a handful of breeders have the size and depth to keep pushing the koi improvement envelop. The 'little guys' just can't keep up.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Kohaku I see as far removed from the wild-type or origins of nishikigoi aas one can get. Other koi outside of gosanke link back in one way or other. Showa, due to it sumi base is as far away from those origins as they can get without the complete loss of that identity.

    Mmmm, this could be the very first time we don't things exactly the same way! LOLs
    Black fish with magoi sumi are atavistic individuals and they are actually closer to wild type then the karasugoi you and I admire so much. Remember-- true black/black koi are mutations- that is hypermelanistic.
    Kohaku is from asagi by way of asagi magoi. And magoi is not actually a true wild carp as these fish came from human sources as imports- albeit some very old generational 'imports'. I prefer to think of all Japanese magoi as feral carp rather than true wild stock. The lake Biwa strain does lean back on what I just said. But more studies need to be done on those fish.
    So who is more distant from who? I think we argue that all day long-- so I'd suggest we only see traits of magoi in nishikigoi. And efforts at atavism.
    That is why I have described the evolution of a common carp to a fancy common carp as a three step process-
    1) isolation of a gene pool to create a unique gene pool ( magoi to asagi magoi, doro magoi and tetsu magoi)
    2) the appearence of three fundamental mutations ( leucism, hypermelanism, mutation of melanin) The colored carp phase
    3) the selective breeding of mutation carp and the crossing of results- the rise of the Nishikigoi.

    So if we think about it, the 'wild carp' is specifically a natural product of Eastern Europe and Western china ( asia). And the Japanese magoi strains are captive bred or feral common carp. there for many centuries, but pure imports nontheless. And likely brought in in waves over centuries.
    How close are nishikigoi to that foundation? In the end, not very. certainly they are still common carp, but what a different strain from the Wild European cousins! Atavism is real and its fascinating to observe. But at the end of the day it is impossible ( actually impossible) to breed even basic colored carp back to be identical to wild carp. Just as it is impossible to breed the dog back to being a wolf. Wolf-like yes, but never exactly wolves again. That 'tooth paste' can get be put back into the tube.
    The most profound concept I ever read as a student of genetic said
    "once a population is isolated from the wild population ( main gene pool) and breed a generation or two, it can never again be the same as the original population. It really is the amazing potential of genes.
    But I digress---- JR

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